MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Pramila Jayapal

Interview

Joining us now is Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. She is chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, and she has had quite a day.

Congressman Jayapal, it`s a real pleasure to have you here. Thanks for making time.

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): It`s great to see you, Rachel.

MADDOW: So, again, I`m watching from the cheap seats, as is everybody in the country who is a stakeholder in this fight, who cares about this policy, who knows how transformative they have this bill would be if it passes. And even people who aren`t invested in the policy, who just can`t believe the drama and have this ruling out across personalities and across time.

What can you tell us about that meeting with Senator Manchin, and how we should understand it in terms of whether this thing is going to get done?

JAYAPAL: Well, Rachel, I have said for sometime that we`re going to get them both done. We are going to get them done. It`s a messy process.

Democracy is not always easy. Negotiation is not always easy. There are differences, everybody knows that there are differences. We got to bridge them and we have to come together, because at the end of the day, we have to deliver both of these bills. The infrastructure bill and the Build Back Better act to the president`s desk.

I have always been to happy to talk to anybody. It was great to spend time with Senator Manchin today. I am not going to get into the details of what we talked about, but I just think it is important for us to be talking to each other. I felt that way for some time. And, I think that those conversations are important to have. Because we`re not going to be able to make progress endless we all talk to each other.

And so, that`s what today was about. Also, meeting with the president and really, again, this is the president`s agenda and I`m really proud of the progressive caucus for what we did to actually get the Build Back Better Act back on the table.

[21:20:01]

And have us negotiating on it. Have a real discussion around it. Because unlike the bipartisan bill, which you and I talked about, and I think we were both kind of skeptical honestly that it was going to get done, but it took five months, and eventually it got done. But, this also has really only been two weeks of negotiation. It`s only since the progressive caucus said we`re not going to do one without the other that we then were able to get people to take this negotiation seriously. And come to the table.

And that`s what we`re doing right now. I`m not saying it`s going to -- I don`t know that it`s going to be done tomorrow. We`re going to keep having this conversations, I`m back at the White House tomorrow, with some of my progressive colleagues.

I know the president also doing another meeting with some of the other centrist Democrats. But, this is important. And I do think it`s important that the president himself, has been really engaged, because I`ve been saying on TV, and I`ve said it to him directly, he thanked me for this, it`s the president`s agenda.

This is the agenda that Joe Biden ran on, the Democrats ran on, and now we have to deliver it, all of us. And he is at the center of that, and he is working very hard to get us to resolution.

MADDOW: Do you believe that Senator Manchin wants to pass the Build Back Better Act. You said at the very top your remarks there, that you believe that both of these things will pass. If he doesn`t want Build Back Better to pass, it won`t pass. Do you believe that he wants a bill, and it`s just a matter of finding what it is that exactly that he can say yes to?

JAYAPAL: Yes. I do believe that. I do don`t think he would have all these discussions if that wasn`t the case. There are differences. Some of them have been reported in the papers. There are differences in terms of what are states -- I mean, one of the things that`s always interesting for me, when I`m talking to people that are from very different states, it`s just to listen and here. Okay, what is it like in your state and vice versa.

And so, I think that is an important part in getting to understand where someone is coming from, and any negotiation that I`ve ever been in. And I think, obviously, the main negotiations have been happening primarily between the two senators and the White House, and then between us in the White House.

But this was an important step for us to listen to each other directly and to be able to say that, for example, for me to be able to say, yes, I do believe that Senator Manchin wants the bill to pass. Is it a different bill then the bill I want to pass? Yes. Are we going to get to some resolution? I believe so.

But, it may take a little bit of time. It may look opaque on the outside. And, it may be frustrating because, you know, I don`t think everybody`s going to get everything they want. And I think that is true. That is the reality.

But, can we do something that is truly transformative for the country that really does provide universal child care, pre-K, home and community based care, a real investment climate? I mean, all the big -- housing, all of the things we`ve been talking about. I do think that we will deliver something very transformative, for the country. I really do.

MADDOW: You just sat there that, nobody is going to get everything they want and the bill that you want to pass is not the same bill that Senator Manchin wants to pass.

I have to ask you, and I mean this quite literally, does Senator Manchin think that he is going to get everything he wants? Does he actually think that he gets to decide the full scope of the bill and he doesn`t have to negotiate? And I asked that, not to be snide, but specifically because the critiques that summer Senator Sanders has made, I think, really resonates with me, which is that and everybody who wants to pass this bill, is willing to talk about what it`s going to be, it can`t -- the results of negotiation can`t be that two people get to dictate that they get everything they want. There has to be some meeting in the middle.

I don`t know that Senator Manchin shares that though, do you feel like do you know that after meeting with him today?

JAYAPAL: I can`t speak for him. I mean, I really can`t speak for him. I`m certainly not going to defend his position.

I just think that, you know, I think that probably he would`ve been fine -- well, I don`t I`m not going to speak for him. I just think that we are going to get this bill done. It is going to be more than some people wanted. It is going to be less than one other what people wanted.

What I`m concerned about is, is a transformative? Is it going to be a massive investment in people`s lives, in improving people`s lives, so that Rachel, at the end of the day, they actually trust us in government to deliver? That is to me is the biggest thing here.

[21:25:02]

And that`s what I`m looking at, at every piece of this, with that lens. Are we going to be able to get people to trust, that we did, if not everything that we said we were going to do, but a substantial portion of it? And one of the things that the president`s head, he said it in Connecticut, he said it to me today, we are going to fight for everything. We might not just get everything in this particular moment. But we aren`t giving up on any of this, for the longer term.

But we got to be able to deliver, at least something transformational. And that`s, I think that`s -- I mean, I -- you know, look I`m an optimist. Can you be in politics without being an optimist? Can you be an organizer without being an optimist?

I`m an optimist. I believe we`re going to get there. I don`t think it`s going to be simple. I don`t think it`s going to be clean. I think people will need to have a little bit of patience. But I think we`re going to get there.

MADDOW: Briefly, Congresswoman, a follow-up meeting with Senator Manchin. Any plans to meet with Senator Sinema?

JAYAPAL: You know, I had a conversation with Senator Sinema already. And I`d be happy to have another one. I think the key thing here is I am ready to talk to anybody, anywhere, literally, at any time, because we got to get this done. I mean, we have to work to deliver things that make people say my life is better. That`s all I want at the end of the day.

People wake up and say, you know what they fought for me and they made my life better. And maybe I didn`t get everything but they thought fought for me and they made my life better. And I want people to be able to say that, and I think we`re in a bill to do that.

MADDOW: Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, chair of the congressional caucus - - very much in the room where it happens today, both with the president and Senator Manchin. Thanks for keeping us apprise. I have the feeling we`re going to be prying with you more about these conversations in days ahead. Thanks for helping us understand, I really appreciated.

JAYAPAL: Thank you, Rachel.

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