MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders

Interview

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Joining us now is Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. He is chair of the Senate Budget Committee.

Senator Sanders, it`s a real pleasure to have you here tonight, thank you for making time.

SANDERS: Thank you for having me.

MADDOW: You always speak your mind. You never leave any ambiguity or shadow or gray area in terms of what you want and what you`re seeking and why. Still, though, it was remarkable to hear your blunt language today about your Senate Democratic colleague, about Senator Manchin and how you feel like he`s essentially behaving in an unfair way. What led you to that point today?

SANDERS: Well, I think there is a growing frustration, not only in the Congress but among the American people, that now is the time, Rachel, for us to try to restore the faith of the American people in their democracy and in their government, that we in fact can do meaningful things for them, that we can improve their lives.

And all that we are trying to do in many ways is to do what countries all over the world are doing. Is it really very radical to say that older people in America should not have rotting teeth in their mouth or should not be able to afford hearing aids or eyeglasses? Or that disabled people should be able to stay home and get the care they need at home rather than be forced into a nursing home? Or that working families should pay 20, 25, 30 percent of their income for childcare?

And then when you deal with the issue of climate, you know, just last week scientists working on climate change got the Nobel Prize.

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Climate change is the existential threat to our planet. We cannot walk away from that issue and then go back to our kids and grandchildren and say, we didn`t do it. This is the future of the planet.

So I am tired of the generalities. You know, hearing what Mr. Manchin, frankly, Ms. Sinema, are saying. And if they want to negotiate, let`s negotiate. But when you got the overwhelming majority of the American people, the overwhelming majority of the Democratic House and Senate Caucus, when you got the president of the United States, you know, it`s not a 50/50 deal.

Mr. Manchin deserves to be heard. He deserves to get some compromises. But it is wrong for one or two people to think that they can dictate the outcome of this process.

MADDOW: And is that what`s actually happening with the negotiations, that rather than the entire Democratic Caucus being at one point, Senators Manchin and Sinema being at another, and finding out where in between you may be able to land, is it not happening that way, are they just insisting on what they want, full stop, 100 percent, or they won`t vote for the bill and it will die?

SANDERS: That`s the threat. That is exactly the threat. And I hope everybody understands this. We got 50 votes. The Republicans -- we should pay a little bit of attention to the fact that there`s not one Republican prepared to stand up to the pharmaceutical industry or the fossil fuel industry or the health insurance companies, you know, or the billionaires who want to continue to get their tax breaks and enjoy their loopholes. Not one Republican.

But in truth, that is the leverage that any one member of the Democratic caucus has. Look, I could go to Chuck Schumer, the majority leader, and say, Chuck, you know that I believe that our current health care system is totally dysfunctional, wasteful, expensive. We pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. Unless you put a Medicare for all single pair program into reconciliation package, I`m not voting for it.

I could do that tomorrow, Rachel. But that would be unfair to do, you know? At most, half the caucus supports that position. It would be wrong for me to say take what I want or I`m out of here. That`s just not being part of a caucus. It`s give and take, and not holding that type of attitude.

MADDOW: Is it possible here that part of the problem is that Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema, who you I believe rightfully pointed out today have been very vague about what they want, that they might want different and contradictory things? I say that thinking specifically about climate. At least in the abstract, Senator Sinema keeps saying she cares a lot about climate and wants to do a lot on climate mitigation efforts.

Senator Manchin, especially because of his past association with fossil fuel and coal companies, seems to be in a different position. Is it possible they both have do-or-die things they`re going to insist on that are contradictory and so there`s no way to even please them even if you tried to give in to both of them?

SANDERS: Well, one of the problems we have is we`re not quite clear about what either of them wants. I think that you are right. According to press reports, Senator Sinema is not unsympathetic to doing something on climate.

On the other hand, according to press reports, are they true or not, I don`t know, but the press says she is -- does not want Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices despite the fact that 90 percent of the American people want a lower prescription drug cost in America, and that she doesn`t want to have increased taxes on the very wealthy. Is that true? I don`t know.

But that`s one of the problems, that we hear this from third parties and we haven`t heard that directly from her, nor have we heard the specifics in terms of what Manchin wants. So I think what we are going to have to do, I think there`s a growing feeling in the caucus to do this, is to sit down in the room and say, okay, you really want to cut childcare, you want to not have pre-K?

Do you really think that we should not expand Medicare or make sure that people today who have no insurance in Republican states get an expansion of Medicare, Medicaid? Is that what you think? Do you think we should not have free community college so kids can`t get the training they need to go out and get the jobs that are sitting unfilled right now?

You know, we need that type of specificity in order to negotiate appropriately. We don`t have it right now.

MADDOW: I was struck by the fact that after you gave your press conference today and talked about Senator Manchin by name in such specific terms, he put out a statement saying that you and he have very different political beliefs and that he thinks that you want America to be an entitlement society where he doesn`t want that, he wants what he called a compassionate and rewarding society.

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It`s an unusual dynamic playing out effectively through the press, both you at this press conference and him in this written statement today. Are the two of you going to eventually get together face-to-face and talk about this out? Will that be how this gets resolved?

SANDERS: It`s not just me. We do meet. He`s part of leadership. I`m part of the Democratic leadership, every week we sit down and these issues do come up.

I`m not quite sure. We need Mr. Manchin, Senator Manchin, to help us with what compassionate and rewarding society is about. Does that mean addressing the reality that 600,000 people in the country are homeless? Does it mean dealing with the grotesque level of wealth inequality that we have? Does it mean dealing with one out of four Americans can`t fill the prescriptions their doctors write because the price of drugs in this country is sometimes ten times higher than it is in Canada and other countries?

So we need some specificity. He wants to say I believe in an entitlement society, I would not look at it -- use that phraseology. I do believe in a nation based on economic, social, racial, and environmental justice.

Yeah, frankly, I admit it, you got it right here on your show, I believe all Americans are entitled as human beings to health care. I believe people are entitled to quality education regardless of their income. I believe that people are entitled to affordable housing. I don`t believe that two people are entitled to own more wealth than the bottom 40 percent of American society.

And by the way, one of the things that`s playing out here, Rachel, and I don`t think the media has paid appropriate attention to it, is in the midst of all of this, the ruling class of this country, and that is the drug companies, the insurance companies, fossil fuel industry, they`re spending hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Pharmaceutical industry has 1,500 paid lobbyists on Capitol Hill, three lobbyists for every member of Congress so we don`t raise prescription drugs.

So this is a pivotal moment in American history, it seems to me, really. And I`m going to continue to fight as I have for working families and do my best to prevent this country from moving in an authoritarian direction. Because you`ve got so many people out there that are working longer hours for lower wages.

Their kids are going anywhere in a hurry. They can`t take care of their parents. And they are saying, does the United States government care about me? Or are they only worried about their campaign contributions from wealthy individuals?

So this is not only trying to improve life for working families who are really struggling to keep their ends together. It is whether or not we retain a democracy in which government works for all and not just the very wealthy and the powerful.

MADDOW: Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, the chair of the Senate Budget Committee -- sir, thank you for joining us. I know these negotiations are fraught and everything is turning into very long days. Thanks for helping us understand.

SANDERS: Thank you very much, Rachel. Thanks for having me.

MADDOW: All right.

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