MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Chris Van Hollen

Interview

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Joining us now, one of the 48 senators who has closed deal with Joe Biden, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. He`s a member of the Senate appropriations committee and Senate budget committee.

Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

The president was pretty precise there. It`s come down to just two. What is it going to take? Especially now that there`s nothing that we can call a deadline here. There are just some targets on the calendar for when we might get this done, Halloween appears to be the next target on the calendar to get this done, which I have to say doesn`t seem like a good legislative omen.

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Well, listen, Lawrence, first of all, if you ask the American people and poll them on the elements of the Build Back Better agenda, it`s popular across the board, it`s popular with Democrats. It`s popular with independents, popular with many, many Republicans.

So what we need to do in addition to getting leader Schumer and Speaker Pelosi at the White House, we essentially need to get Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema at the White House around the clock and, in my view, ask them what they`re proposing to take out of the Build Back Better agenda, right? You want to take out the proposal that extends tax cuts to middle and lower income families with kids? You want to take out the provision that reduces the cost of prescription drugs for all Americans?

Do you want to take out the provision to provide universal early education and lower cost child care? What do you want to take out? Rather than play with arbitrary numbers.

[22:29:41]

We know the number will now come down below $3.5 trillion, but rather than throwing a dart at a dart board and saying here`s the new number, let`s do it by asking all of our colleagues, especially those two, what it is they want to take out.

O`DONNELL: Well, and there`s also the very important point that you do need a number, of course. You know, there`s this press discussion about the number, but the committees need a number in order to write a reconciliation bill to an identical number.

The House has to write a 1.5 or a 2.5 or a 3.5. The Senate has to write to the identical number. That, as you know, has to be assembled. The assembled work of a bunch of different committees.

So for example, the tax writing committee has to know what tax provisions are in and what tax provisions are out because they`ve got to write the bill now to the correct number and so you`re never going to get anywhere if you don`t get either the outline number very soon or much more specificity on exactly, for example, which tax provisions Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema will accept.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, Lawrence, you`re absolutely right. You do have to get to a number to be able to fill it all out, but I do think that we should take this in the right order, which is when you reduce the number dramatically, obviously that has consequences, right?

It means some of the big parts of the Build Back Better agenda won`t be included or that all parts of it will be reduced or shortened in terms of the length or some combination.

So rather than just pick a random number, we should say, ok, here`s what will happen if you say you don`t want these particular policies. That will reduce the number by a certain amount. You`ll have more certainty, but understand that what you`re calling for is cutting a provision.

Let`s say you`re calling for cutting the provision to reduce taxes for families with kids or you`re reducing the number that says we`re going to expand Medicare to cover vision, dental, and hearing services.

My point, Lawrence, is that people should take responsibility about exactly what it is they`re prepared to throw overboard to throw out of President Biden`s Build Back Better agenda. Rather than just say, oh, yes, we`re going to pick a number. Yes, we got to get to a number, you`re absolutely right, but how we get to that is important.

O`DONNELL: Senator Manchin`s document that was leaked seems deliberately last week outlining the points that he was concerned about. If you look just at the tax piece of it as I did, it was a very progressive tax package that he was in favor of. In fact, more progressive than what the House Ways and Means Committee has produced so far because Senator Manchin in writing there said that he`d be ready to tax investment bankers, subject them to real income tax provisions as opposed to what they get away with now.

The Ways and Means Committee didn`t do that. but that`s the kind of thing that you have to know right now, whether that`s going to be in the bill or not, you have to know does Senator Sinema agree with that. We don`t know that.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, that`s exactly right, and I was pleased with the revenue proposals on Senator Manchin`s list. As you said he included getting rid of the carried interest loophole which was not part of the House bill.

So you`re exactly right, what we need is for our colleagues to be very clear on what they are for, what they`re willing to accept. We got a sense from Senator Manchin with respect to some of the revenue pieces. We need a better sense from both as to, you know, what it is they want to throw overboard from the Build Back Better agenda.

I hope that when we have that discussion, they`ll agree that we should keep provisions like child -- the tax cuts for families with kids, that we keep the provision with respect to universal pre-k, and lower cost for child care.

But we have to go through that dialogue, we have to have that discussion in order to reach an agreement.

O`DONNELL: The president today made it -- went out of his way to make special comments about the debt limit, raising the debt limit. Let`s just listen to 17 seconds of what he had to say that really drove home his point.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not only are Republicans refusing to do their job, they`re threatening to use the power, their power to prevent us from doing our job, saving the economy from a catastrophic event.

I think, quite frankly, it`s hypocritical, dangerous, and disgraceful.

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O`DONNELL: Mitch McConnell so far just blocking the Democrats on having a straight majority vote on raising the debt limit. What`s going to happen?

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VAN HOLLEN: Well, President Biden`s exactly right. I mean the right thing for Republicans to do is, of course, join us in lifting the debt ceiling. McConnell has been very clear in public statements over time that failure to do that would be devastating to the economy. So they should do that, but at the very least, get the hell out of the way.

They`ve said that they want Democrats to do this with a majority vote. We`ve said, ok. We will do this with a majority vote. Let`s have consent from Republicans that the Democrats will do the right thing for their country on our own. He has blocked that.

He is -- Mitch McConnell and the Republicans are taking our economy over the cliff. The American people, I think, are going to have eyes wide open as to what`s happening.

And by the way, Lawrence, one way to prevent a default is to get rid of the filibuster for the purpose of the debt ceiling. And my view is, you know, get rid of the filibuster anyway, but this is a perfect reason for doing it. And Mitch McConnell will have given everybody the excuse.

O`DONNELL: Senator Chris Van Hollen, one of the 48. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

VAN HOLLEN: Great to be with you, thanks Lawrence.

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