CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Pramila Jayapal

Interview

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Joining me is the chair of the House Progressive Caucus, Pramila Jayapal.

Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining me.

It was a really extraordinary week. I have covered Washington for a long time, and this is the first time I have seen progressives have the numbers and the power and the will to use that power to hold the line on the issues that you're pushing.

What do you think this week says about the progressive wing of the Democratic Party?

JAYAPAL: Well, Dana, it is great to see you and great to be with you.

What I think is happening right now is, progressives have helped push back onto the table, back onto the agenda President Biden's agenda. I mean, this is really what happened. There was a Build Back Better agenda that the president laid out to Congress five months.

It had infrastructure, roads and bridges, but it also had, 85 percent of it was around these other important programs, child care, universal child care, paid family leave for 12 weeks for everybody, making sure we're taking on the climate crisis, expanding health care, and, of course, taking on the challenge of giving a path to citizenship for immigrants.

All of that ended up in something called the Build Back Better Act. And, all of a sudden, Dana, we thought we made clear three-and-a-half months ago that the two had to move together, because we don't want to pit roads and bridges against child care.

And we know that the president doesn't want to do that either. But when that changed, and, suddenly, a small group of people, 4 percent of the entire House Democratic Caucus and the Senate Democratic Caucus, said, we only want the bipartisan infrastructure bill to go...

BASH: Yes.

JAYAPAL: And that's after five months of negotiating. BASH: Yes.

JAYAPAL: We had to stand up and get the whole thing back together.

And that's what I think has happened now. We have put the bills back together, as was the original agreement, and we are going to deliver both bills, the infrastructure bill, which is important.

BASH: Right.

JAYAPAL: And the Build Back Better Act.

BASH: Well, not everybody agreed that that was the agreement. I will get to that in a second.

I'm sure you have seen Congressman Josh Gottheimer and Senator Kyrsten Sinema, both moderate Democrats. They released scathing statements over the weekend. Gottheimer accused you and your fellow progressives of employing Freedom Caucus tactics. Senator Sinema called your move an ineffective stunt, saying the delay further erodes trust and that she does not trade her vote for political favors.

[09:05:04]

Those are pretty harsh words. Those are fellow Democrats.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

It's unfortunate, because we believe that it was a bad move to put an arbitrary date on this infrastructure bill and to delink the two to start with. We have been very clear for three-and-a-half months. And I have said to news media. When they say, well, it's -- there are two senators, I say, listen, we have got a very slim majority in the House as well.

And we should be clear that this was a majority of our caucus. So it's not just a few people. We had over 60 votes.

BASH: Right.

JAYAPAL: And that number was increasing of people who were desperately committed to the idea that we're not leaving anybody behind.

BASH: Right, but at least Senator Sinema is opposed to some of the substance of what you're pushing.

And with a 50/50 Senate, every...

JAYAPAL: Yes.

BASH: You have leverage in the House.

JAYAPAL: Absolutely.

BASH: They have leverage in the Senate. So, now the pressure is on for you to deliver.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

BASH: And you know that, I'm sure.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

BASH: I want to talk about negotiations.

Some top Democrats and White House officials are floating a $2.1 trillion package, a lot smaller than what you are currently at, $3.5 trillion. Are you open to $2.1 trillion?

JAYAPAL: Well, what we have said from the beginning is, it's never been about the price tag.

It's about what we want to deliver. The price tag comes out of that. So, we understand that we the 3.5, we thought was negotiated already, is clearly not negotiated. We understand we have to get 50 senators on board, and we have to keep everyone in the House on board.

And so we are now going back to make sure, what is the way that we can get all of the critical programs that we had identified, those things I talked to you about, child care, paid leave plan...

BASH: Yes. And I'm going to get to that in a second.

JAYAPAL: Yes, how do we get all of those things in, but -- and -- but perhaps for a shorter period of time, and be able to get then to the number from that?

The critical thing is, let's get our priorities in, and then we will figure out what it actually costs.

BASH: And I understand that, but there is a lot of focus and a lot of the negotiating is on that top-line number.

Is -- for example, is $2 trillion, $2.1 trillion, your absolute floor?

JAYAPAL: We're not thinking about the number.

And the president said this to us too. He said, don't start with the number. Start with what you're for. And that's what he's asked them for. And then let's come to the number from there. So, that's how we're thinking about it.

BASH: And that makes sense. But you -- you have been looking at this for a long time. You have been looking at the policies and what it adds up to and how you can do it.

I mean, this is what your focus is, almost solely.

JAYAPAL: Yes. Yes.

BASH: So, you, I'm sure, have looked at whether or not you can do what you want to do for $2 trillion.

JAYAPAL: Well, we don't know what the number is yet. There's no -- there's no number on the table yet that is -- everyone has agreed to.

It's not like they have come to us and said...

BASH: But what do you think?

JAYAPAL: I don't feel the need to give a number, because I gave my number. It was 3.5. So, if you're in a negotiation, you need to have a counteroffer before you bid against yourself.

BASH: So, if we're not looking at numbers, what about 1.5, like, what Senator Manchin...

JAYAPAL: Well, that's not going to happen.

BASH: But why is that...

JAYAPAL: So it's going to be somewhere...

BASH: Why won't it add up to that number?

JAYAPAL: Because that's too small to get our priorities in.

So, it's going to be somewhere between 1.5 and 3.5. And I think the White House is working on that right now, because, remember, what we want to deliver is child care, paid leave, climate change, housing.

BASH: Yes.

And I want to get to that, but I just -- so, 1.5 is too small, but you won't say if $2 trillion is too small?

JAYAPAL: Because I don't have a definite number yet. I mean, I don't have a counteroffer.

BASH: OK.

JAYAPAL: It would be like buying a house, Dana, and going into make an offer, and then somebody says, well, what's the lowest number you would take? Why would I do that?

BASH: Yes. OK.

JAYAPAL: So...

BASH: Let's talk about the substance that does matter more than anything right now.

JAYAPAL: Yes. Yes. Right.

BASH: And because there's so much that you're talking about, I want to put up for our viewers on the screen some of the specific policies.

JAYAPAL: Yes. BASH: Universal pre-K, child care, tuition-free community college, paid medical and family leave, the child tax credit, making it permanent, dental and vision, hearing coverage for Medicare, home care for seniors and sweeping climate provisions.

So, looking at all of that, Congresswoman, what is your strategy to negotiate? Are you thinking about keeping all of those programs in and just making the time that you're going to allow them to be out there shorter? Are you going to cut some of those programs? What's your plan?

JAYAPAL: Well, that's -- the things that you mentioned are priorities. So our idea now is to look at how you make them funded for a little bit of a shorter time.

And we're also going through some of the smaller things that were in there just to see, what are those things and do they need to be in there as well? That right there will probably cut out a decent amount, small things that were in there or things that we might be able to fund through an appropriations process.

BASH: So, for example?

JAYAPAL: So, going through and looking at all of that.

BASH: What do you think will be big cuts...

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JAYAPAL: You know, we're not quite there yet in terms of what, but there are a lot of items that were $2 billion, $3 billion, that, if you put them all together, they add up to a bigger number.

[09:10:01]

They might have been put there to keep somebody happy, so we have to be careful as we pull them out of who we're going to lose. But I think that's the process we're going through right now.

BASH: Anything in there that's absolutely non-negotiable, must be in there for a 10-year period?

JAYAPAL: Our -- for a 10-year period?

I think that the clean electricity standards really do need to be in there for a 10-year period, because it takes time to cut carbon emissions. And we need to have that certainty in order for the market to move in that direction. So, that, I think, is one that really does need to be there for 10 years.

BASH: And what about means testing? Are you comfortable with means testing? That's what Joe Manchin wants, meaning people who can afford it won't get these benefits.

JAYAPAL: Well, all of the research shows means testing actually doesn't target it more, but it does create a lot of administrative burden and a lot more cost.

BASH: So, is that a no?

JAYAPAL: So, it's not -- it's not what I want to do.

I'm -- actually just had a staff member do a paper for me on all the reasons why means testing is not a fiscally prudent thing to do or a policy prudent thing to do. But let's see. The negotiation is just starting.

BASH: Senator Joe Manchin said this weekend that this reconciliation bill -- this is the bill that we're talking about -- must include the Hyde Amendment, which bans federal dollars to go for abortions.

He said -- quote -- "Yes, we're not taking the Hyde Amendment off. Hyde is going to be on. It has to be. It has to be. That's dead on arrival if it's gone."

I know this is personal for you.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

BASH: You shared your experience with abortion in congressional testimony this past week.

Can you vote for a bill that does -- that has the Hyde Amendment in it?

JAYAPAL: No.

BASH: So, what happens? How do you compromise on that?

JAYAPAL: I mean, let's just -- we're -- this is a negotiation. And we have got to continue to move this forward.

But the Hyde Amendment is something that the majority of the country does not support. One in four women have had an abortion and need to have reproductive care in a very, very important time, when those protections are being rolled back.

That is nobody's business. It is our business, as people that carry the babies. And we have to be able to make those choices during our pregnancy.

BASH: So, just to be clear, you want to have legislation -- in this legislation, you want to allow federal dollars to be spent for abortion?

JAYAPAL: No, none of the -- none of the dollars here are going for that. I mean, we already have...

BASH: Because that's what the Hyde Amendment bans. So how would -- so...

JAYAPAL: Well, I think that the reality is, I think what he is asking for, from my understanding, is something even more than that. And so let's just -- let's just continue to see where we are. But I

think the important thing here is, this is the beginning of a negotiation.

BASH: OK, thank you so much for coming in.

JAYAPAL: Thank you. Yes. Yes.

BASH: I really appreciate it.

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