CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Pramila Jayapal

Interview

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And let's begin with the chair of the House Progressive Caucus, Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal of Washington state.

Congresswoman, always good to see you. Thank you so much.

So, let's just talk about where we are right now. Speaker Pelosi plans to bring or had said she was going to bring the bipartisan infrastructure plan to the floor of the House tomorrow.

Now, you have said that you and dozens of progressives will go vote against that bill, likely tanking it, if the $3.5 trillion spending bill does not come up first. Is it your understanding that the infrastructure bill is coming up for a vote tomorrow, and you and your fellow progressives will defeat it tomorrow? Is that what you expect will happen tomorrow?

JAYAPAL: Well, I know we're working very hard to get agreement on the reconciliation package. And that, of course, has to be agreement across the Senate and the House, because we are not going to leave anyone behind. We're not going to leave behind women who desperately need child care.

We're not going to leave behind taking on climate change and taking urgent action. We're not going to leave behind public housing. We're not going to leave behind immigrants who are essential workers and need to be acknowledged as such.

And, fundamentally, we're not going to leave behind health care in the midst of a health care crisis.

TAPPER: Right.

JAYAPAL: So, that's all the stuff that's in the Build Back Better Act, what we're calling the reconciliation bill.

And our point is just, we're ready to vote for both. We are excited to vote for both. And we will vote for both. But we need to actually get the reconciliation bill done. That was what we said three-and-a-half months ago, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes.

JAYAPAL: And so our belief is that we will get there. We're very close. But it has to -- we have to get to that reconciliation bill first.

TAPPER: Would it be enough if there were an agreement on the Build Back Better Act, the $3.5 trillion spending package, but not an actual vote tomorrow? Would that be enough for you and the House progressives to vote for the infrastructure bill?

JAYAPAL: Well, the reconciliation bill does have to start in the House, because it's a budget reconciliation bill.

TAPPER: Right.

JAYAPAL: But everything should be agreed upon.

What we don't to have happen...

TAPPER: So, an agreement is good -- an agreement is good enough?

JAYAPAL: Well, no, but an agreement of exactly what's in there. The language needs to be worked out, because...

TAPPER: And a commitment that everybody's going to vote for it.

JAYAPAL: And everyone's going to vote for it, and, if Republicans offer amendments in a vote-a-rama, that we're not going to have Democratic senators suddenly vote with Republicans.

So, the idea here is, unlike many other bills, many other times that we do this, where the House passes a bill, it's not necessarily something that the Senate can do, the Senate then goes and passes their bill, and then we conference, or we have back-and-forth, this is a pre-conferenced bill, which means everybody, everybody in the Senate right and everybody in the House has to agree on every piece of it. [09:05:05]

TAPPER: But Pelosi says that she's bringing the infrastructure bill, the bipartisan bill, to the floor of the House tomorrow for consideration.

Are you going to vote for it or against it?

JAYAPAL: I don't believe there will be a vote.

I mean, the speaker...

TAPPER: You don't think there's going to be a vote tomorrow?

JAYAPAL: I mean, the speaker is an incredibly good vote-counter. And she knows exactly where her caucus stands.

And we have been really clear on that.

TAPPER: The votes aren't there? She's not going to bring it up?

JAYAPAL: The votes aren't there.

So, I just -- I don't think she's going to bring it up. But I think -- look, I think the urgency is important. I mean, this -- in some ways, the fact that this is there has finally provided the urgency for senators to engage in reconciliation, for the president to really weigh in.

And, ultimately, we're delivering on the president's agenda. I mean, this is -- the Build Back Better agenda is not some crazy agenda that just a few people support. It's actually the vast majority of the Democratic Caucus. And there's a few people in the House and a couple in the Senate who aren't quite there yet.

But even moderates in front-line districts all support this Build Back Better agenda.

TAPPER: Right.

But just to clarify, there, you don't think there's going to be a vote tomorrow, but, either way, you're looking for an agreement on the reconciliation, not necessarily a vote first, when it comes to infrastructure?

JAYAPAL: Well, it's just the logistics of it, right?

TAPPER: Yes.

JAYAPAL: Everything has to be done. There has to be kind of an ironclad...

TAPPER: Are you guys close to that at all, an agreement?

JAYAPAL: Well, I think we're finally talking, which is important, because that hasn't been happening for the last couple of months. TAPPER: Yes.

Pelosi says it's going to happen this week. Is that realistic?

JAYAPAL: I mean, we want to have that happen as soon as possible. So everybody -- I know I worked every single minute of every single day for the last several weeks -- for the last week, last several days, trying to try to talk to people and get this done.

That's our hope, is to try to get it done. But we need the Senate to engage with us if that's going to happen.

TAPPER: Well, let's -- let's listen to what West Virginia Democratic Senator Joe Manchin said on the show two weeks ago about the threat by progressives to tank the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): If they can go home and tell people that, hey, I don't care about the roads and bridges, you don't need it, I don't care about Internet service, you don't need that, I don't care about fixing water and sewer lines, if they play politics with the needs of America, I can tell you, America will recoil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: What do you say to that?

JAYAPAL: I mean, look, we need to bring down the temperature, but I would just say, I could say the same thing about anyone who votes against the reconciliation bill.

If you want to go back and tell people that you don't want child care, or you don't want housing, or you don't want to take on climate change, or you don't want to provide health care to people. I mean, that's not good either.

This is the president's Democratic agenda. We will deliver on both of them, Jake. I am absolutely confident of that. But it's going to take work. And it's going to take the Senate, Joe Manchin and others, sitting down to actually negotiate.

And I am ready, willing and able to talk to anyone about anything at any time to get that done.

TAPPER: You have said the progressives have been team players and the big adults in the room. You have conceded a lot, you note, such as moving from $6 trillion to $3.5 trillion on the ultimate ticket item of this.

Do you think the moderate Democrats have been team players and the big adults in the room?

JAYAPAL: Well, as I said, moderate Democrat is a lot of people across the caucus that actually...

TAPPER: Well, the ones that are -- the ones that have been...

JAYAPAL: OK, I just want to be clear that there's only like nine or 10 or whatever that number is.

TAPPER: OK, these nine or 10, Gottheimer, Manchin, Sinema...

JAYAPAL: Yes. Yes. Yes.

TAPPER: ... have they been team players?

JAYAPAL: We have -- I have been talking with Josh almost -- a lot over the last week.

And I think we're all -- I believe that they want to find a way through this.

TAPPER: You do?

JAYAPAL: And I believe that we are going to get through this.

TAPPER: Do you think it's possible that the price tag will come down? I have heard the number $2 trillion floated as a possible endpoint.

JAYAPAL: I think we should -- look, first of all, as I said to the president and I heard him say, this is a $0 bill, because it's all going to be paid for with taxes on the wealthiest corporations and the wealthiest individuals, which, by the way, makes it more popular than it was even before. And it's already very popular.

But, ultimately, I think it depends on what we put in there. We put our proposal out. It was -- it cost $3.5 trillion when you add everything up.

TAPPER: Right.

JAYAPAL: But if somebody wants to take something out, we need to hear what that is. I don't know what -- I don't know what the alternative proposal is, so it's difficult for me to say.

TAPPER: Well, one -- let's just talk about one of them.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

TAPPER: Some moderates have suggested that the -- means testing, meaning only providing for people moderate to lower income for the child tax credit, for child care, for tuition-free community college.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

TAPPER: That that would be an idea, instead of just providing it for everybody.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

TAPPER: Somebody who makes what I make doesn't -- or makes what you make doesn't need free child care necessarily. JAYAPAL: Yes. Right.

The thing about that is, let's look at the rental assistance bill just as an example. We had so many provisions in there to try to make sure that it was only the right people that needed to qualify that the assistance never got out. I mean, it takes somebody 3.5 hours to actually get through a form. And that's with help.

[09:10:10]

So, ultimately, the best thing we can do is make these programs universal, deliver the benefits as quickly as possible, and make sure that people are actually being able to access it, and not being pushed aside by all these requirements.

So, we can talk about it, but I think that everyone has shown, all the studies have shown that there isn't some big abuse of these programs going on. And, to me, it's about, how do we get the benefits out quickly to people, and not actually put barriers in the way for the people who are most vulnerable and most need that assistance?

TAPPER: Senator Manchin obviously represents West Virginia, which is historically a coal mining state. He says a lot of the climate change provisions in the bill will hurt people in his state.

JAYAPAL: I think this is going to be one of the harder places for us to negotiate, but one of the most important.

The president has made a commitment. He's going to go to COP 26. He has said that we want to be a leader in cutting emissions and getting to the goals that he set forth for 2035. If we're going to do that, we have got to put some really stringent standards in place and put some tax credits and incentives in place.

That is what the clean electricity standards are. And we have got to be able to do those. So, let's see where that goes. But I agree that is a -- that's going to be one...

TAPPER: A big sticking point.

JAYAPAL: ... that we're going to have to work through.

TAPPER: So, it's been a really intense few weeks, as I don't need to tell you.

I want to ask about a moment in the Oval Office last week with President Biden. Your staff has been talking openly about this.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

TAPPER: So, I'm not talking out of school about a moment that was very personal to you.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

TAPPER: You apparently broke into tears when you were pushing for immigration reform.

Tell us what -- tell us about that moment, why it was important to you.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

Actually, I was batting cleanup. I was the last speaker. I was sitting closest to the president. So it was like this, literally this far apart. And I went through all my priorities for the Progressive Caucus, exactly all the things we had on the table, the agreements that had been made.

And, at the end, I said: "Mr. President, I want to tell you why this is so important."

And I told the story, Jake, of coming to this country at 16 years old. My parents had nothing in their pockets. They sent me alone. I arrived here alone with nothing in my pocket.

TAPPER: From where?

JAYAPAL: From India, because my parents, for whatever reason, believed that America was the place where I was going to be able to have a different kind of a life, an opportunity.

And I did. I went to college. I went to graduate school. And then I went from nothing in my pockets at 16 by myself to actually sitting in the Oval Office with the president, as the first South Asian American woman in the House.

And I said, that -- I had the American dream. We have to be able to deliver the American dream for everyone.

And that emotion of the story was a beautiful thing, actually. And I hope we never stop feeling the emotion of why we're here and why it's important to do what we're doing. But it was a lovely moment. And the president also sheds tears when he tells stories. And it's one of the beautiful things about him, is the compassion.

And I felt like we shared that moment, because I know, from talking to him before, that he also identifies with the immigrant experience of his ancestors, his -- the previous generation. So it was wonderful.

And I find it just a wonderful thing that we're able to kind of say what drives us to do this. This isn't just about numbers. This is about real people getting opportunity and transforming their lives.

TAPPER: It is a great country.

JAYAPAL: It is a great country. Exactly. It was a beautiful thing.

TAPPER: Well, it is a great country. And look at you.

JAYAPAL: Yes.

TAPPER: So, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. JAYAPAL: Thank you.

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