MSNBC "All In with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Bernie Sanders

Interview

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HAYES: What Price is right? Right now, the Democrats reconciliation package is perhaps best known to the American public to the extent they know about it by the $3.5 trillion price tag. Some say it should be less, other said it should be more, but the cost of the bill tells us nothing about its actual value or what it could do for this country.

Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders is the chair of the Senate Budget Committee. He is the architect of the Democrats` reconciliation bill and he joins me now. All right, Senator, I think you were all in this situation because of reconciliation and because of the way that you move things through. But let`s just start with this. If I said to you like, what is this bill, not what`s the laundry list of things in it, but like, conceptually, the Democrats are going to pass an X bill. What is the X?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): The X bill is saying, finally, for the first time in the modern history of this country, that the United States government is going to stand up and address the long neglected issues facing working people, and that we`re going to fund it by demanding that the wealthiest people in this country and the largest corporations start paying their fair share of taxes.

And the President that I think many of us in Congress deserve credit because what we are doing is taking a hard look at the reality of life for working families, what`s going on with the children, what`s going on with the elderly, what`s going on in healthcare, and very significantly, understanding that if we do not get a handle on transforming our energy system away from fossil fuel, the planet that we`re going to leave our kids and future generations will be increasingly unhealthy and uninhabitable.

So, this is a big deal. And I got to tell you, Chris, we are taking on the entire ruling class of America, the entire oligarchy. You take on the pharmaceutical industry because they don`t want us to lower the cost of prescription drugs. They`re taken on the healthcare industry that don`t want us to expand Medicare to cover dental, hearing aids, and eyeglasses.

We`re taking on the fossil fuel industry, obviously, because they want to continue to make profits by destroying the planet. So, this is a huge deal. It is a monumental moment in modern American history whether or not we can show the American people that we can address their long-standing problems, improve life, and have the courage to take on incredibly wealthy and powerful forces for spending millions of dollars against us right now.

HAYES: You mentioned the pharmaceutical industry, and I want to follow up on a conversation we just had about those three Democrats on the Energy and Commerce Committee who voted against Medicare drug price negotiation plan as proposed. That`s Scott Peters of California, Kurt Schrader of Oregon, Kathleen Rice of New York. They say, hey, look, we need -- we need a bipartisan, bicameral solution. What do you think of that?

SANDERS: Yes. I think it`s totally absurd. I mean, you know, you have a Republican Party which is a right-wing extremist party right now which is owned by the pharmaceutical industry. The polling out there is just unbelievable, whether you`re Republican or Democrat, overwhelming majority of the American people understand that the pharmaceutical industry is ripping us off in an unconscionable way.

You may recall, I`ve made two trips to Canada with people from Vermont and people from the Midwest. We bought insulin and other prescription drugs for 1/10 of the price that the drug companies are selling the same product here in the United States of America. Thousands of people die every year because they can`t afford the medicine that they need.

The question is whether we have the guts to stand up with what is an incredibly powerful lobby? Do you know how much money these guys in the pharmaceutical industry have spent over the last 20 years on lobbying and campaign contributions?

HAYES: I don`t.

SANDERS: $4.5 billion. Do you know how many lobbyists they have on Capitol Hill right now twisting arms? They got 1200 lobbyists. That`s two -- more than two per member of Congress. So, this is -- they don`t lose. They have owned the Congress forever. And whether or not we can stand up to them and defeat them and finally do what the American people want, lower the cost of prescription drugs is something we have got to do.

[20:55:55]

HAYES: I am loath to get back into the price conversation, but I do want to make this point, and I want to -- I want to play you what the President said and I think it`s clarifying to follow up on that. So, I want to say play what President Biden said today and then -- and then ask you a clarifying question. Take a listen for a second.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: My Republican friends are attacking my plan saying it`s big spending. Let me remind you. This are the same folks who just four years ago passed the Trump tax cut totaling almost $2 trillion in tax cuts, a giant giveaway to the largest corporations in the top one percent. And listen to this. Almost none of that $2 trillion tax cut was paid for. It just ballooned the federal deficit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: OK, so here`s part of the thing that has been driving me nuts about the discourse on this bill. The cost is just one part of the ledger of the bill, right? I`m not crazy here. It`s -- there`s a cost part, and then there`s a revenue raiser`s part. And people only talk about the cost part. Like, there are -- right, that the you couldn`t pass it the reconciliation if we`re just going to charge it to the deficit, right? I mean, have I lost the plot here?

SANDERS: You could. Actually, you could, but we`re not going to do that. I mean, what we intend -- look, the bill is still being worked on.

HAYES: Interesting.

SANDERS: The bill is still being worked on.

HAYES: Maybe we get rid of all -- you get rid of all these tax raises that the oligarchs don`t like and passes thing and charge it and come back the next day.

SANDERS: All right, but what we want to do is, in fact, pay for it. We -- I -- you know, if I had my druthers, I would pay for every nickel of it by demanding as the president just said, that we end the absurdity of large corporations making billions and in a given year, pay nothing in federal income taxes.

Some of the wealthiest people in this country, Elon Musk, I think, Jeff Bezos, in a given year, do not pay a nickel in federal income tax. Anyone think that that is vaguely sane? It is not. So, what we can do in one way or another or in a variety of ways, raise the revenue that we need to pay for this.

And by the way, Chris, your point about, you know, taking a look at what we are trying to do. The evidence is overwhelming that when you invest in childcare, when you invest in education, when you invest in children, you get that investment back many times over. And in terms of climate, what are we supposed to say? How do you deal with this issue?

How much is too much? When you`re talking about saving the planet? How much? And if the planet goes down in 50 years, well, gee whiz, how much should we have spent or not spent? You know, it`s pretty crazy stuff. And what even -- every economist understands economic output is going to decline precipitously because of climate, not to mention the huge amounts of money was spent trying to repair the damages of storms and floods.

So, the President, in my view, again, I said this before, deserves credit. For with no margin in the Senate, 50-50, three-vote margin in the House, he understands, I understand. I think the majority of the American people understand because what we are doing is enormously popular. The American rescue plan was popular, this is popular. The American people want us to address the crises facing working people and have the guts finally to stand up to the big money interest of the United States Congress.

HAYES: You named the most difficult part of this, which is a unanimous vote. And unanimity is tough. You come -- you`ve come out of the, you know, some universe of old left unanimous consensus groups, you know, in a basement trying to get 12 people to agree on something. It`s not easy.

SANDERS: It is very difficult. And I hope people appreciate that. I mean, if we had 60 or 70 votes, you know, it would make life a lot easier. We got zero votes. He got 50 votes in the Senate. And Nancy Pelosi has three-vote margin in the House. So, this is really, really tough. And it`s going to be a lot of debate and discussion going on, trust me. But at the end of the day, I think we`re going to do what the American people want and pass the most consequential piece of legislation in a very long time.

HAYES: Senator Bernie Sanders, we will have you back again as this goes forward.

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