CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Amy Klobuchar

Interview

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Everyday citizens are now encouraged to report anyone who aids a woman in getting abortion, which could include anyone, from a doctor to a family member, even an Uber driver.

And now a handful of other states are considering similar measures.

Joining me now, Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Thank you so much for joining me, Senator.

KLOBUCHAR: Thanks, Dana.

BASH: Because the Supreme Court allowed the Texas law to stand, abortion is now all but illegal in that state.

And the court is set to hear arguments in the fall about a Mississippi law banning abortions after 15 weeks, with no exceptions for rape or incest.

So, I want to play an exchange that you had with now Justice Amy Coney Barrett during her confirmation hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMY CONEY BARRETT, U.S. SUPREME COURT ASSOCIATE JUSTICE: As Richard Fallon from Harvard said, Roe is not a super precedent because calls for its overruling have never ceased, but that doesn't mean that Roe should be overruled. It just means that it doesn't fall on the small handful of cases that Marbury vs. Madison and Brown vs. the Board that no one questions anymore.

KLOBUCHAR: Well, I am then left with looking at the tracks of your record and where it leads the American people. And I think it leads us to a place that's going to have severe repercussions for them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Senator, is the court about to overturn Roe v. Wade?

KLOBUCHAR: I hope not, Dana.

But if you follow those tracks, as I mentioned at Justice Coney Barrett's hearing, I think you know where it leads.

And this decision that they made with the state of Texas is unbelievable. And Justice Roberts, not exactly a liberal, a conservative justice, who sided with the liberal justices in this case in dissent, said that the Texas law was unusual, it was unprecedented, that they're basically taking their own authority and giving it to the populace in the form of, hey, you can be a bounty hunter, $10,000.

You can report a woman who's trying to go and seek to exercise her constitutional rights. That is exactly what that law says. And in the past, when they had cases that were so blatantly against Roe v. Wade, they would stay those cases when such requests came up. They did it with another Texas law. They did it in 2015. They did it in 2019.

And so here you have them, this year, this week, basically telling women in Texas that 85 percent of them seeking abortion services cannot exercise their constitutional rights.

BASH: Yes.

KLOBUCHAR: And they know very well that there are over 500 laws that are messing around with this, and you're going to see cases just like this come before them.

They did at midnight with just less than 72 hours of debate, in Justice Kagan's words, and basically green-lighted a law that is blatantly against Roe v. Wade.

BASH: Real quick, you said you hope not on the question of, will the court overturn Roe v. Wade? But it sounds like you're saying that you think it will.

KLOBUCHAR: Well, I hope not, but you never know when the justices look at the facts of a case.

BASH: Right.

KLOBUCHAR: You also have a recent state court decision that stayed this with some clinics in Texas.

You're going to see this wind up through the notoriously conservative Fifth Circuit. And then it eventually will go to the Supreme Court. But the problem is this, which is why I turn to Congress and why I believe that is a solution. It can take months, it can take years for a final case on the merits to get before the Supreme Court.

BASH: So -- so, Senator, you mentioned Congress.

Speaker Pelosi says the House will vote to codify abortion protections into law. But you know better than I do there aren't 60 votes for that in the U.S. Senate. So, realistically, what can you and your fellow Democrats do, or is the Texas law going to be allowed to stand?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, first of all, I'm glad Speaker Pelosi is showing that leadership to get this through the House immediately, basically codify or to put Roe v. Wade into law.

In the U.S. Senate, first of all, there are some pro-choice Republicans. I want to make that clear. We have seen that time and time again in votes, specifically...

BASH: But enough to get to 60?

KLOBUCHAR: No. Senator Collins, Senator Murkowski.

So, my solution to this, which is my solution for voting rights and so many other things, including climate change, where one side of the country is in flames, the other side of the country is flooded, with people dying submerged in their cars, I believe we should abolish the filibuster.

I do not believe an archaic rule should be used to allow us to put our heads in the sand, to use Justice Sotomayor's words, to put our heads in the sand, and not take action on the important issues, the challenges that are facing our country right now, now and over the next years.

[09:25:08]

We just will get nowhere if we keep this filibuster in place.

BASH: Well, that...

KLOBUCHAR: And so that is why I think it's important.

How do we do it? Well, there have been those, including Senator Manchin, that have signaled an interest in what's called the standing filibuster, where you basically have -- require the other side to have to be there day in and day out, to require them to support a position that isn't even supported by all of their own members on Roe, not supported by 77 percent of the American public who thinks Roe should remain law.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Forgive me. Don't you think there are a lot of Republicans who would be happy to stand up to talk for hours and days and weeks about their opposition to abortion rights? How would that change the outcome of the number problem that you have?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, I'm sure there is.

But I think it is really important that we make these reforms. Another one would be to carve out constitutional rights, to carve out things like the voting bill, to allow for votes on that.

And I think my job right now is to make the case on the merits. I talked to Senator Manchin, Senator Sinema. There's not that many senators. And that's what we're doing.

But I just think to pretend that this isn't happening right now is the biggest mistake. This is an assault on women's health. There is no doubt about it. And as you could see by my exchange with Amy Coney Barrett, we could see it coming.

There are now three Trump Supreme Court justices. You add that to the two conservatives that were already there, this is the result. It's not a surprise. BASH: Senator, this decision is renewing calls by some on the left

for Democrats to vote to or at least try to vote to expand the size of the Supreme Court. President Biden doesn't support that. You said you were open to the idea in the past. Where do you stand now?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, I still am. And you can see why. I don't think this court is going to change any time in the near future.

But, again, practically, as I look at it, I think what is the best way to get to a result that's the right policy, that's consistent with where the American people are, that will not wreak havoc in this country? And, to me, the best thing is to get rid of the filibuster.

But that is an option, and President Biden has a commission in place right now that is considering it.

BASH: You said last time you were on this show that Justice Stephen Breyer, if he's going to retire, he should do it sooner, rather than later. Is that time now?

KLOBUCHAR: I stick to my words.

I believe, if he is seriously considering retirement -- and he has said he would do it based on not only his own health, but also the future of the court -- if this decision doesn't cry out for that, I don't know what does.

BASH: Before I let...

KLOBUCHAR: I think, if he's going to do it, sooner, rather than later.

And, again, as you know, Dana, that's not going to change the results necessarily, but at least it doesn't put it at 7-2.

BASH: Let's talk infrastructure, plans to pass a $3.5 trillion reconciliation plan.

It includes much of President Biden's domestic agenda. It came to a screeching halt this week. Your colleague Senator Manchin, who you mentioned, he said he won't support that price tag. He called for a strategic pause. You just heard White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain say he thinks that Manchin is persuadable. Do you agree?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, I never quite use the word persuadable with Joe Manchin, but I think that he is someone that many times has been willing to get to a place that's the right place to be.

Lookit, we were able to work with him, President Biden was able to work with him, and he himself came to the right position on the American Rescue Plan, which, as we still struggle with the pandemic, as we turn the corner on it, has literally saved lives and put our country in such a better place.

I believe you saw the same thing happen with the infrastructure bill, which recently -- the bipartisan bill that passed the Senate. And now I believe we will get there when it comes to this really important part of Build Back Better, which is about housing and child care, while we are still getting through this pandemic.

So, I don't quite use the word persuadable, because it's -- I'm trying to picture persuading Joe Manchin. But he gets to the right place. We knew this was going to be a tough negotiation. I'm not surprised by what he wrote. And we will get this done.

BASH: Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you so much for joining me this morning. I really appreciate it.

KLOBUCHAR: Thanks, Dana. Great to be on.

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