CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Michael McCaul

Interview

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TAPPER: And welcome back to the STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Jake Tapper.

As the Biden administration scrambles to evacuate Americans from Afghanistan, top Biden officials are briefing all members of the House of Representatives this morning on the rapidly deteriorating situation.

After 20 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of American and Afghan lives lost, some lawmakers, not to mention veterans who fought in the war and lost friends, are wondering, what was it all for?

Joining us now, the top Republican on the Foreign Affairs Committee, Congressman Michael McCaul of Texas.

Congressman, thanks for joining us.

So, I do want to give you an opportunity to respond to what you just heard from Secretary Blinken.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): Yes, I think the secretary has been devoid of reality this whole time since the decision was made in May.

I think it's an unmitigated disaster of epic proportions. And I think the president -- this is going to be a stain on this president and his presidency. And I think he's going to have blood on his hands for what they did.

For months, we have been warning. Ambassador Crocker and I wrote an op-ed in "The New York Times" about what we need to do now to save the interpreters, what we need to do to have our ISR, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance capabilities in the region.

Now we are going dark. They totally blew this one. They completely underestimated the strength of the Taliban. And Jake, they didn't listen to the intelligence community, because every time I got an I.C. briefing assessment, it was probably the grimmest assessment I have ever heard on Afghanistan.

And yet they -- the State Department, Secretary Blinken, the politicos in the White House wanted to paint this rosy picture that somehow these peace talks in Doha were going to deliver a rabbit out of the hat at the 11th hour.

Well, guess what? That didn't happen. And now they're sending 5,000 troops in to try to save our embassy personnel. They are destroying classified documents as I speak. The visa process has stopped. And now I'm -- President Biden said in July this is not going to be a Saigon, it's not like South Vietnam.

And guess what? When I talk to Ambassador Crocker, we think it's going to be worse than Saigon.

TAPPER: President Biden...

MCCAUL: When they raise the black flag of Taliban over our United States Embassy, think about that visual.

TAPPER: President Biden released a statement yesterday defending his decision, saying -- quote -- "One more year or five more years of U.S. military presence would not have made a difference if the Afghan military cannot or will not hold its own country, and an endless American presence in the middle of another country's civil conflict was not acceptable to me."

What do you make of that argument, if, after 20 years, the Taliban could take over so easily, the Afghan military would fold so easily, that no amount of time would have solved the problem?

[09:25:06]

MCCAUL: Well, I think history is repeating itself.

Remember, it was Obama and the vice president, at that time, Biden, who decided to withdraw completely out of Iraq, and look what happened. ISIS reared its ugly head.

I persuaded President Trump to keep the residual force in Syria. And now you're looking at a very light footprint, a very, if you will, insurance policy for stability in the region. And they knew, given the icy assessment, what was going to happen if we withdrew. They do, if it wasn't conditions-based -- and that's very important here, had to be conditions-based, as the February agreement stated -- if it wasn't done that way, and we allowed the Taliban to hit the provincial capitals, they never cut their ties to al Qaeda.

I don't know what the secretary is talking about when he says that we can maybe recognize them as a legitimate government. They have never cut their ties to al Qaeda. We're going to go back, Jake, to a pre- 9/11 state, a breeding ground for terrorism.

And I hate to say this. I hope we don't have to go back there, but it will be a threat to the homeland in a matter of time.

TAPPER: Your fellow Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger tweeted that -- quote -- "Between Trump and Biden, they own this." Congresswoman Liz Cheney, another Republican called, it the -- quote -- "Trump-Biden calamity," saying this began with -- quote -- "Trump administration negotiating with terrorists."

Senator Ben Sasse put out a similar statement.

Does former President Trump share the blame for what we're seeing in Afghanistan because of the deal he made with the Taliban and the fact -- Secretary Blinken wasn't wrong when he said that the Taliban was stronger in January of this year than it has been since 9/11.

MCCAUL: Well -- and I have talked to the national security adviser, O'Brien, about this whole -- it was always going to be conditions- based.

They are violating two principles of that agreement, one, attacking provincial capitals, two, never cutting ties with al Qaeda. In his words, when he talked to President Trump, he told him that I will not allow to have another Saigon on my watch. And they even talked about B-52s.

So, but we can talk hypothetically about what the prior president may -- may or may not have done. But Harry Truman once said, the buck stops here. And for President Biden to try to throw all this on the former administration is a lack of responsibility and accountability.

He owns this, absolutely, 100 percent. He owns it. He made the decision. And what's worse, Jake, is when you and I started to get engaged on this, once he made the decision, he could have done certain things. He could have planned for it. He could have had a strategy for this.

But, instead, they had no strategy. And now they're knocking on the doorstep of Kabul. The noose is tightening around the Kabul neck. And there's still no strategy, other than race to the airport and evacuate as many people as you can. This is a really sad day, not only for America, but for the Afghan people, the women left behind, and I would say our international standing in the world.

We look so weak. And it's so embarrassing. And you're right. China hosted the Taliban in China, saying they would call them the legitimate government. Don't think for a minute now the Chinese are not going to go into Afghanistan, get the rare earth minerals, and put a base of operations in Afghanistan.

We have negotiated out of weakness here. And the Taliban -- I'm sorry -- our foreign adversaries are emboldened, that being Russia, China, Iran. Remember, we have no ISR capability anymore.

TAPPER: Yes.

MCCAUL: We're going dark in Afghanistan as a dark veil covers the country.

TAPPER: What do you make of the pushback from the Biden administration -- and I don't disagree, the buck stops with whoever is behind the Resolute Desk -- but the pushback that Trump set the stage for all of this, in the sense that he was talking about inviting the Taliban to Camp David, that last year, just last year, Trump and Secretary Pompeo were suggesting that the Taliban would be a partner with the U.S. in fighting terrorism?

Trump said that the Taliban would be -- quote -- "killing terrorists." Pompeo said that the Taliban would -- quote -- "work alongside us to destroy, deny resources to al Qaeda."

First of all, have you seen any evidence that that's happening?

MCCAUL: Well, I think their strategy was, they knew that a transitional government would have to necessarily include the Taliban.

I don't think anybody likes the Taliban. I equate negotiating with the Taliban like negotiating with the ayatollah. I'm not -- personally think that's a very great idea. But I think that was the thinking at the time. But, again, this agreement was conditions-based. And the conditions have not been fulfilled.

[09:30:02]

And I do think Biden does own this. He's reversed so many policies of Trump's in the past, whether it be remain in Mexico, to the Paris accords, the Iran JCPOA. The idea that President Biden couldn't come in and reverse this the agreement, why this one, right?

TAPPER: Yes.

MCCAUL: He's the president of the United States. He's the commander in chief.

And for him to skirt this responsibility, when it was his decision, and it's -- the consequences from a national security standpoint are severe, because now they can say they defeated the United States in Afghanistan, the infidel, just like they defeated the Soviet Union.

This will have long term-ramifications.

TAPPER: Congressman Michael McCaul, Republican of Texas, thank you for your time, sir. Good to see you.

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