CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Nancy Pelosi

Interview

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REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Good morning. Good to see you.

BASH: ... as we come out of the pandemic.

I want to start where I just left off, and the news about the Justice Department during the Trump administration, subpoenaed Apple for data from Democratic members of the House Intelligence Committee, their staff, some of their families.

So, do you know how many members had their data subpoenaed? Any subpoenaed for you or from you or your staff?

PELOSI: Well, good morning.

BASH: Good morning.

PELOSI: Congratulations to you on the show.

BASH: Thank you.

PELOSI: And before I answer that, I just want to say I'm wearing orange because this is the color of gun violence prevention.

Last night, while we were having a moment much silence for those, 49 people who were victims of the Pulse assault, other mass shootings were happening across the country.

So, as we talk about all these issues about infrastructure and about commission and about data mining and the rest, every day, every morning, every night, we are not forgetting these victims.

When I visit the Pulse at the time of the shooting, the families came together and said, stop this from happening. When they visited Washington following that horrible thing, they said, stop this from happening for other people's families to go through what we're going.

That was from the families and then some of the victims who survived that.

So, again, for us, we are not going away until we can get legislation passed. We have in the House, hopefully in the Senate. It's bipartisan in the nation that we would have background checks to prevent guns from getting in the hands of those who should not have them.

Now, will that cover everything? No, but it goes a very long way. And it prevented millions of gun purchases not to happen up until now. Now we have to expand it to include Internet sales and gun shows and the rest.

BASH: And you have done your job on that in the House.

PELOSI: Yes. But...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: The question is the 50/50 Senate...

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: ... would tell you, this is, like, our prayer morning and night and our actions all day.

So, I can't go even to talk about anything else...

BASH: Understandable.

PELOSI: ... without saying the death in these families, it just has -- deaths in these families must stop.

So, in terms of the data mining, what the Republicans -- what the administration did, the Justice Department, the leadership of the former president goes even beyond Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon had an enemies list. This is about undermining the rule of law.

And for the attorneys general, Barr and Sessions, at least two, to say that they didn't know anything about it is beyond belief. So, we will have to have them come under oath to testify about that.

Now, how could it be that undermining the rule of law, undermining the separation of power of the executive branch and the legislative branch, and having these -- just data mining is something new, in terms of where technology has taken us, but not new in terms of something that should never have happened.

[09:05:20]

BASH: Do you think it's limited just to the members we know?

PELOSI: We don't know.

We -- that's why we will have to -- well, of course, the inspector general's report is very important, but it is not a substitute for what we must do in the Congress. And I know that the Senate has called for some review. We will certainly have that in the House of Representatives.

BASH: So, you said that both the former Attorney General Barr and Sessions, they have said they didn't know anything about this. So has Rod Rosenstein...

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: And Rosenstein as well.

BASH: ... who was the deputy attorney general.

If you don't see them voluntarily on Capitol Hill, will you subpoena them?

PELOSI: Well, let's hope they will want to honor the rule of law.

This is -- the Justice Department has been rogue under President Trump, understand that, in so many respects. This is just another manifestation of their rogue activity. The others were perpetrated by the attorneys general, but this is one that they claim no knowledge of.

How could it be that there could be an investigation of other -- members in the other branch of government, and the press and the rest, too, and the attorneys general did not know? So, who are these people? And are they still in the Justice Department?

And, again, this is just out of the question. No matter who is president, whatever party, this cannot be the way it goes.

BASH: Let's turn to infrastructure.

PELOSI: Yes.

BASH: A group of five Democrats, five Republican senators, they have a deal that they say is $1.2 trillion, about $600 billion in new spending. That's more than Republicans were offering, but that's...

PELOSI: Yes.

BASH: ... of course, less than President Biden wanted.

I know a lot of the details are still being worked out, but they're also saying no new taxes. So, the combination of no new taxes to pay for it and about $1.2 trillion, is that something in the ballpark that you would agree with?

PELOSI: Well, I'm very pleased they came to their agreement.

Of course, the president of the United States is a major factor in this, and he has said he would not support any taxes on people making under $400,000 a year, and that includes increasing the gas tax, which I think may be part of their arrangement.

Well, we haven't seen it, but that was what was thought to be in the plan for a source of funds. We certainly know that there's money to be had by at least making people pay their taxes. I'm not even talking about those who abuse the system. I'm just talking about those who illegally do not pay their taxes specifically.

And so let's see. I haven't seen it. You're announcing this. I do think that it is predicated on an infrastructure that is of the last century. We have to be thinking in a more forward way. We must build back better.

So, if this is something that can be agreed upon, I don't know how we can possibly sell it -- excuse me...

(COUGHING)

PELOSI: ... to our caucus, unless we know there is more to come.

BASH: Yes.

PELOSI: And the more to come in building back better means having more people participate in the prosperity of our country.

Excuse me.

BASH: So, while you take a drink, I will ask you this question.

What I hear you saying is that this would be something you could agree to, as long as you get some kind of promise for a second bite at the apple.

PELOSI: Well, as Congress works its will, we will just see what the possibilities are.

This is one step. I have heard the president say -- and aren't we proud of him? What a unifier, and so proud of him overseas now saying, we're back. But I have heard him say with Republicans in the room, let's figure out what we can agree on, on infrastructure. Let's see if we can come to a reasonable amount of money to get that work done, but I have no intention of abandoning the rest of my vision about the better -- building back better.

What is being talked about in this is, by and large, something that could have been talked about 50 years ago. We're talking about the future.

BASH: So, do you have faith in Republicans?

PELOSI: Oh, I have...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: That they are negotiating in good faith?

PELOSI: I assume that the Republicans -- the Democrats who are negotiating with them have faith in them.

I think we always have to believe -- I think we have a responsibility -- let me say it a different way -- to find common ground, if we can. But if we can't, we have to stand our ground, but we have to understand that, if we can come to terms in a bipartisan way, that would be -- I think the public wants to see that.

[09:10:12]

Now, in some areas, the Republicans not only do not want to come together; they want to push back further. Witness H.R.1 and other issues we may talk about now. But infrastructure has always been bipartisan. It's never -- I mean,

it's always been, let's see how we can work together for our communities. Let's find agreement in the communities as to what is important.

BASH: Right, but some Republicans, a lot of Republicans say that, when it comes to bricks and mortar, roads and bridges, traditional infrastructure, that's fine, but when you talk about new government programs for childcare, for elderly care, that's where they say no.

PELOSI: Well, I don't know -- I think, on the other hand, in different settings, they talk about childcare being important. And it is. And it is.

And we have a very strong commitment. And our Women's Caucus especially wants us to go as big as we can on childcare and home health care and family and medical leave, all of these things that enable, not just women, but people responsible -- dads and moms and caregivers, to be able to participate in the work force and to honor the work that is done by caregivers to respect what they do, to adequately train for it, and to pay for it.

BASH: So, let's talk about -- you mentioned H.R.1.

PELOSI: Yes.

BASH: That is what we call H.R.1, what people should know, it is...

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: ... one.

BASH: It is rewriting, a major rewrite of the election law.

It's now in the Senate. West Virginia Democrat Joe Manchin says, point blank, he doesn't support it. I want to read part of an op-ed he wrote last week.

He wrote: "I believe that partisan voting legislation will destroy the already weakening binds of our democracy. And for that reason, I will vote against the For the People Act," which is H.R.1.

So, when Democrats literally don't have one vote to spare and you read that from Joe Manchin, how are you going to get it passed?

PELOSI: I don't give up on Joe Manchin.

When he was governor and secretary of state in West Virginia, he initiated many of the ideas that are in the H.R.1, S.1, the For the People Act, the For the People. And it's not necessarily a rewriting. It's stopping. The first 300 pages of S.1, the For the People Act, H.R.1, were written by John Lewis to stop the voter suppression.

The -- the initiative that is there to stop partisan gerrymandering and redistricting is really essential for the health of our country. Democrats shouldn't be gerrymandering and Republicans shouldn't. The commission piece in there is very important. And that would be new.

The -- stopping the big, dark, special interest money from suffocating the airwaves, why do you think we cannot have climate language that is easy to come to agreement? Why do you think we do not have gun violence protection? It's because of that big, dark money.

And the public knows, it knows that that money is -- has -- stands in the way of good policy, and, again, to give voice to small donors and the grassroots.

BASH: So, a lot of that is the part that Senator Manchin says that he doesn't support doing right now. You said that you don't...

PELOSI: I read the article -- the op-ed.

BASH: Yes.

PELOSI: And you read a part of it.

BASH: Yes.

PELOSI: I think he left the door open. I think it's ajar.

I'm not giving up.

BASH: Well, and I wanted to ask you about that, because you're not just reading an op-ed. You have a relationship with him.

PELOSI: Mm-hmm.

BASH: Is there something you know that we don't know...

PELOSI: No.

BASH: ... or a lot of people in your caucus who are really upset don't know about Joe Manchin and the possibility of getting this election reform through the Senate?

PELOSI: Well, I don't know anything specific about this, but I do know that he has certain concerns about the legislation that we may be able to come to terms on.

BASH: So, it's bridgeable?

PELOSI: I think so. Well, as I said to him, I read the op-ed. You left the door open, and we're going to go right in.

BASH: Oh, you talked to him about it?

PELOSI: Of course, yes.

And -- but we were -- actually, our conversations were more about the commission, and in the course of that conversation.

But, in any case, let's just put this in its proper place. Our democracy is at stake. What the Republicans are doing across the country, even since we wrote -- this is -- we have had this in the election of 2018. A hundred candidates wrote and said, make For the People, H.R.1, the first order of business.

That -- and now we see, under the administration, further work...

BASH: Yes.

PELOSI: ... in the former administration. And the Republicans across the country are undermining our democracy, suppressing the vote, ignoring the sanctity of the vote, which is the basis for our democracy.

[09:15:04]

And so we cannot let that stand. We have to make this fight for our democracy. It isn't about Democrats or Republicans. It's not about partisanship. Forget that. It's about patriotism. So, we must pass this.

BASH: Speaking of democracy, I always wanted to ask you this question.

You're the speaker of the House. I know you like to stay in your lane and not cross over to the Senate, but a lot of people in your caucus say the entire Democratic agenda is being held up because of the filibuster. Do you think the filibuster should go away?

PELOSI: Well, you know what? As you know, I don't talk about Senate rules, and I don't want them messing with our rules.

BASH: OK. Just wanted to give it a try. All right, let...

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: But I do think that, instead of talking about the filibuster, as I say to my members, let's talk about the issues, gun violence prevention, climate initiatives, issues that relate to the Equality Act, in this month of pride, ending discrimination against the LGBTQ community, women's -- the Violence Against Women Act.

Name what are the issues that we care about. That's really the discussion. And what -- why do we not have them? Well, that's more of interest to people, their kitchen table issues about the cost of prescription drugs. We want to give the secretary the power to negotiate for lower prices. If that needs 60 votes, it might not happen.

BASH: So let's talk about January 6 and getting to the bottom of what happened there.

PELOSI: Yes.

BASH: As you well know, Senate Republicans blocked your proposal for a commission, bipartisan commission, to investigate.

You have vowed to get answers no matter what. PELOSI: That's right.

BASH: Are you at the point where you are going to appoint a select committee to do so?

PELOSI: A week ago, I was asked to give it another week. So I will see by Monday if the Senate believes that they could -- those who are working the bipartisan way can get three more votes.

We have -- it would have been 57 if everyone were present voting. Three more. I have yielded on every point, except scope, except scope. Number of people on the committee, subpoena power, timetable, you name it, we have yielded because of the value of the bipartisanship that would spring from that.

But I would not -- they want to say, well, if we're going to investigate that, we should investigate Black Lives Matter and people who turned out after George Floyd was shot. No, that's not what this -- this is about an assault on our democracy, on our Capitol of the United States. The American people deserve and must have answers.

We will seek the truth. We will find the truth. But we hope that we can do it with passing the commission.

BASH: OK. So, assuming the commission doesn't pass, are you saying, by Monday, which is tomorrow, you will announce a select committee?

PELOSI: No, I'm not going to announce anything tomorrow. I want to see what their response is, and then review it with my colleagues.

BASH: But it sounds like you're getting closer to it.

PELOSI: Well, it's an option. And everybody knows the power of the speaker to do that. So I would hope that that would motivate them to say, let's go a different place.

But the question arises what -- the Republicans in the Senate are so afraid of the truth. Why are they so afraid of the truth? They themselves were under assault. This Capitol, our democracy, was under assault. The secretary -- the director of the FBI, even before, in September, testified that white supremacy and anti-Semitism, et cetera...

BASH: Why do you think they're afraid of the truth?

PELOSI: You would have to ask them, but they know where the roads might lead in terms of their -- some of them individually, and, of course, the former president of the United States, who incited an insurrection, who incited an insurrection.

Now, we had an impeachment ceremony. They -- process -- which I thought made the case. A number of Republicans agreed. But, still, I think it's cowardice. And I think it's cowardice just to oppose a former president. But it's also concern about what it says about them.

BASH: I want to ask you about Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. PELOSI: Yes.

BASH: You and other top House Democrats released a pretty rare statement rebuking her for appearing to -- quote -- "draw false equivalencies" between the United States and Israel and terrorist organizations Hamas and Taliban.

She clarified. She said that she was in no way equating them. But since all of that happened, she and others don't seem to be letting this go. Rashida Tlaib, one of her close friends, member of your caucus, tweeted the following: "Freedom of speech don't exist for Muslim women in Congress. The benefit of the doubt doesn't exist for Muslim women in Congress."

PELOSI: OK. You know what?

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: "House Democratic leadership should be ashamed."

PELOSI: Let me just say this.

BASH: Yes.

PELOSI: We did not rebuke her. We thanked -- acknowledged that she made a clarification. So, before we go too far down the path, credit...

(CROSSTALK)

[09:20:05]

BASH: Yes, I'm -- these aren't my words. These are your caucus members' words.

PELOSI: No, I understand that. I understand that.

No, that is a member.

BASH: Yes.

PELOSI: That's a caucus member.

BASH: A caucus member.

PELOSI: A caucus member.

BASH: Yes. So, I just wanted to get your response to that.

PELOSI: Yes, and I will tell you -- no, I'm not -- I'm responding to that.

We -- the -- Congresswoman Omar is a valued member of our caucus. She asked her questions of the secretary of state. Nobody criticized those, about how people will be held accountable if we're not going to the International Court of Justice. That was a very legitimate question. That was not of concern.

Members did become concerned when the tweet that was put out equated the United States with the Taliban and Hamas.

BASH: Rashida Tlaib is accusing you of policing women of color.

PELOSI: And -- and -- and then she clarified it. And we thanked her for clarification.

BASH: So, do you want people to just let it go and move on?

PELOSI: They can say whatever they want.

But what I'm saying is end of subject. She clarified. We thanked her. End of subject. Whatever people go out and say is up to them. But what we -- what happened is a reflection of the respect we have for our member when she made her questions at the hearing, but the disagreement that we have to equate the United States of America with Hamas and the Taliban.

BASH: Before I let you go, I want to look overseas, look ahead to this week.

PELOSI: Yes.

BASH: President Biden has a big meeting with Vladimir Putin.

What do you want to see out of that meeting? And, specifically, I want to go back to something that happened on this show last week. The energy secretary, Jennifer Granholm, said that U.S. adversaries have the capabilities to shut down the power grid.

You have tremendous expertise in intelligence. How worried are you about this? And should President Biden bring it up?

PELOSI: Well, the -- I'm very proud of the fact that the president is in Europe saying, we're back. We're back for climate. We're back for open society. We're open for the relationship that we have had in NATO in terms of security, security, security, which is so important.

And I can tell you, in my meetings with all these people, most of it pre-COVID, but much of it by Zoom since then, that they are so happy that America is back, and they look forward to this visit by the president.

In terms of his meeting with Putin, I think that he should meet with him. They should have a line of communication. And issues like cyber security and energy, of course, are not necessarily on the table in that meeting, but are the reality that we have to deal with.

And energy and cybersecurity are probably two items that may come up at that meeting, but that we have to be prepared for whether they do or not.

Now, let's just make a contrast. The president -- former president of the United States, for whatever reason, whether the Russians had personal, political or financial leverage over him, just kowtowed, catered to Putin in a way that was humiliating to the United States of America.

And when -- when Putin hears about some of the violations of the rights of his own people, he laughs. This is a thug. This is a thug. But he is the head of an important state. In terms of the issues you raise, the president should meet with him. And I think he's going to meet a very different president than one who was at the mercy of Putin.

BASH: Madam Speaker, I so appreciate you coming in.

Again, nice to see you in person as we come out of the pandemic.

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: Thank you.

BASH: I appreciate it.

PELOSI: A pleasure.

Stay safe to everyone.

BASH: Thank you.

PELOSI: A pleasure.

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