CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Susan Collins

Interview

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SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): Thank you, Jake. Great to join you.

TAPPER: So, you just heard from top White House adviser Anita Dunn laying out a case for the president's infrastructure package.

The $600 billion Republican proposal offered by Senator Capito and others is just a fraction of what Biden's offering. Now, you say that Biden's plan has $938 billion in traditional infrastructure. So, are you willing to go that high on the compromise, $938 billion, $1 trillion?

Is that, like, a good part -- point for discussion?

COLLINS: Well, at this point, I think, now that the Republicans have put forth a reasonable offer, it's up to the president to do a counteroffer to us.

I would point out that, if you look at all of the president's recent proposals, they total more than $4.1 trillion. That's the amount that we spent to win World War II. So, this is an enormous package, when you take both the traditional core infrastructure parts and the huge expansion of social programs that the president is advocating.

TAPPER: Yes, I mean, in World War II dollars, of course. But I take your point. It's a big...

COLLINS: Right.

TAPPER: It's a big proposal.

Now, you have said that a modest increase in the corporate tax rate would be OK with you to help pay for infrastructure, because Biden is proposing tax increases to try to pay for at least some of these proposals. The current corporate tax rate is 21 percent. Biden wants 28 percent.

Would you be willing to meet in the middle at 25 percent or so?

COLLINS: Well, let me tell you what I won't support. I won't support American businesses paying the highest corporate tax rate among developed countries in the world once again.

And, unfortunately, that's what 28 percent would be. And that means that jobs would once again go overseas. So, I think we need to look at a wide variety of pay-fors. But, first, we need to determine the scope of the bill and we need to determine what the top line is going to be.

There are a host of different ways to pay for it. And -- but that's premature to get to, until we decide the amount and what exactly is it going to cover?

TAPPER: Let me ask you, because some of your Republican -- Republican colleagues have suggested that Biden's calls for bipartisanship were just campaign rhetoric, just a charade, and he's been governing as a far left, partisan Democrat.

You served with Joe Biden in the Senate for quite some time. When's the last time you talked with him? Is he trying to win your vote? Is he trying to work with you?

COLLINS: I last talked with him on Super Bowl Sunday. He called me out of the blue.

At that point, we were talking about the COVID package. And I was very disappointed, having led a group of 10 Republicans who went to the White House with a good-faith first offer on the COVID package. And the very next day, unfortunately, Senator Schumer triggered a process in the budget -- it's known as reconciliation -- that essentially is used the block out the minority party.

[09:20:02]

So, this is going to be a test for Joe Biden. The Joe Biden that I knew in the Senate was always interested in negotiation. I thought very highly of him. I like him. I worked with him.

This is going to be a test on whether President Biden is truly interested in bipartisanship. If he is, we can get there on the core infrastructure package. And by that, it means roads, bridges, highways, rail, waterways, and, of course, broadband.

TAPPER: Yes, reconciliation used to pass the Trump tax cuts, though, right? COLLINS: I'm sorry?

TAPPER: Reconciliation was also used to pass the Trump tax cuts.

I mean, it's not just Democrats who use that to shut out the minority party. Republicans just did it too.

COLLINS: There was a different approach that was used for the 2017 tax cuts. We did go through committee. There were extensive hearings. There was a markup. That's not what happened with the COVID package.

Now, the president says that is because it is an emergency. But, in the case of infrastructure, we have time to go through the committee process, to hear from experts, to get diverse views, and to try to come together. And I hope very much that that is what we will do.

And I have indicated to the two Cabinet secretaries that I have talked recently to, the secretary of commerce and the secretary of transportation, that I am willing to work very hard to achieve a consensus package.

TAPPER: Let me ask you.

The House just passed legislation to make Washington, D.C., the 51st state. The legislation is now in the Senate. Where are you on that?

COLLINS: Washington, D.C., is a city. It's not a state.

Now, there is a way to ensure that the residents of D.C. have voting representation in Congress, and that is for D.C. to become part of Maryland, just as parts of D.C. became parts of Virginia many years ago.

That would give the residents of D.C. a new House member, and they would be represented in the Senate by Maryland senators. So, I think that's a good way for us to approach this issue. There are also constitutional issues to be dealt with.

TAPPER: Let me ask you.

You're on the Senate Intelligence Committee. Federal investigators are looking into at least two incidents of the so-called Havana syndrome, attacks in the United States, mysterious, invisible attacks, leading to symptoms such as ear popping, vertigo, headaches, nausea.

One of the attacks came near the White House. It sickened a national security official.

You have been focusing on this on the Intelligence Committee. What have you learned that you can tell us? How concerned should Americans be?

COLLINS: I am absolutely outraged at these attacks on our American personnel serving overseas. They started in Havana or were identified there. There's a mysterious, direct energy weapon that is being used. And it

is causing, in some cases, permanent traumatic brain injury. And yet the personnel involved -- there have been other attacks around the world -- have had a difficult time getting both the medical care and the financial help that they need from the CIA. And that is outrageous.

What we need to do -- and I'm introducing, working on legislation -- is to ensure they get the medical care and the financial compensation that they need. And we need a whole-of-government approach to identify what adversary is targeting American personnel who are serving particularly overseas, but now we hear reports of cases here.

I am hopeful that, with the new CIA director, whom I have talked to about this issue twice, he is committed. And, also, the chair, Mark Warner, and the vice chair, Marco Rubio, of the Intelligence Committee have announced that we're going to continue our investigations and get to the bottom of these absolutely outrageous attacks on our men and women who are serving our country.

TAPPER: Let's turn to the state of the Republican Party.

Your fellow Republican Senator Mitt Romney, who I believe is a friend of yours, he was booed by delegates at the Utah Republican Convention yesterday. What was your reaction when you saw that clip of him being booed and the close vote to censure him?

[09:25:03]

COLLINS: I was appalled. Mitt Romney is an outstanding senator who serves his state and our country well.

We Republicans need to remember that we are united by fundamental principles, such as a belief in personal responsibility, individual freedom, opportunity, free markets, a strong national defense. Those are the principles that unite us.

We are not a party that is led by just one person. There are many prominent, upcoming younger men and women in our party who hold great promise for leading us. And I think that all of us who abide by those principles should remember Ronald Reagan's admonition to Republicans that the person who agrees with you 70 or 80 percent of the time is your friend, not your enemy.

TAPPER: And yet, if you look at what's going on in the House among Republicans, I mean, some Republicans, including Kevin McCarthy and Steve Scalise, are attacking and trying to undermine Congresswoman Liz Cheney just for fist-bumping Biden on the floor, also for speaking out against Trump's lies about the election.

They're obviously also upset she voted to impeach the president.

Is it politically dangerous to be a Republican like Liz Cheney, who tries to stand up for facts and truth regarding the election and the insurrection?

COLLINS: Liz Cheney is a woman of strength and conscience. And she did what she felt was right. And I salute her for that.

We need to be accepting of differences in our party. We don't want to become like too much of the Democratic Party, which has been taken over by the progressive left. We need to have room for a variety of views, especially since we adhere to those core principles that I mentioned earlier.

TAPPER: After President Trump was impeached for the first time for urging Ukraine's president to investigate Joe Biden, you said that you believed, you hoped that the president had learned his lesson.

Now, I know you said that that was aspirational. But, after Biden won, the president obviously attempted to overturn the legitimate election results. It culminated in the Capitol attack.

Do you ever wonder that Trump did learn a lesson, but the lesson he learned was that he can get away with anything?

COLLINS: Well, first of all, that was an interview that was grossly misedited. It chopped out the rest of what I'd said, which was, in dealing with foreign governments...

TAPPER: Oh, OK.

COLLINS: ... I hoped that the president has learned the lesson.

But to get to your point, I have been involved in three impeachment trials. I voted to acquit President Clinton and President Trump the first time, to convict him the second time. In each case, what I have done is listen to the facts, apply the evidence, and follow the constitutional standard for convicting a president.

My approach has not changed. I used exactly the same criteria, the criteria that the Constitution requires. In the first two cases, I did not feel that the conduct was proven to meet the highest bar for removing a president from office. In the third case, I felt it did.

TAPPER: Yes. No, it wasn't really a question about your behavior. It was a question about Trump and whether or not he learned the wrong lesson.

But let me ask you, as long as we're on the subject of your feelings about Trump, did -- you didn't say who you voted for in 2020. You were running for reelection. I certainly can understand that. Maine is a state with a lot of independents and independent-minded people.

But now that the election is over, who did you vote for in 2020?

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINS: Nice try, Jake. I got asked that a great deal. And I'm going to keep my vote private.

To me, my election was always all about who can better represent Maine and the country. I will work with whomever is the president. I have done that with four presidents. And I'm going to continue to do that with Joe Biden, with President Biden.

To me, that's important, the ability to be able to work with the president, whether or not the president is of your party, and also to be able to work across the aisle and forge bipartisan consensus on the many important issues that we face.

[09:30:05]

And I hope to be successful in helping to forge a bipartisan infrastructure package.

TAPPER: All right, Senator Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, it's great to see you.

Don't be such a stranger. Hope to have you on again sometime soon. Thanks for joining us.

COLLINS: Thank you, Jake.

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