CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with James Clyburn

Interview

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CLYBURN: Well, thank you very much for having me, Jake. I'm going to remind the senator of exactly why the Senate came into

being. If you know the history of the Senate, the Senate was not always an elective office. It used to be -- they used to be sent to Washington by their state legislatures. And that was a compromise.

When we made the Senate elective offices, things would be changed for the Senate. So, no matter what may be your idea about why the Senate came into place, the moment we changed and made it an elective office meant the people thought a change needed to be made.

The same thing goes for the filibuster. The filibuster was put in place to extend debate. And debate, it gives you time to bring people around to your point of view. The Senate was never made put in -- or the filibuster was not put in place in order to suppress voters, in order to overrun the minority.

It was there to make sure that minorities in this country have constitutional rights and not be denied by filibuster.

TAPPER: So, Senator Manchin, he's talking about the need for bipartisanship, and that's why he's reluctant to change it.

He talked about recommitting to bipartisanship this week. He said that the January 6 insurrection, the attack on the Capitol, changed him. He said: Something told me wait a minute, pause, hit the pause button.

What effect did January 6 have on you?

CLYBURN: It had a tremendous effect on me.

And when I saw that Capitol Policeman that I see every day complaining about how many times he was called the N-word by those people who were insurrectionists out there, when I see John Lewis' photo being torn to pieces and scattered on the floor, that told me everything I needed to know about those insurrectionists.

And I would remind anybody who reflect on the 6th of January to think about these issues as well. And all of us know that they're there to perpetuate -- they were there to perpetuate a lie.

[09:35:07]

This president told lies. They reacted to those lies. And, quite frankly, they know full well that they are lies.

TAPPER: And last night, President Trump, former President Trump, at the Republican retreat doubled down on those lies.

And I wonder if you think that the Republican Party is still in thrall to those lies, still committed to those lies, and if that's having an effect on your view of the filibuster and more.

CLYBURN: I think a significant portion of the Republican Party might be, but not all Republicans.

I talk to a lot of Republicans almost daily. And they do feel that, if they had a chance of getting out of a primary and into a general election, they would be more forthcoming. They do know that a significant minority -- it's not the majority of the Republican Party, but it's enough within the Republican primary system to keep them from getting out of the primary.

And that's what's driving this. That's why people are being quiet about it. They know full well that the majority of the American people spoke back in 2020, and over six or seven million more people voted for Joe Biden than voted for Trump. They know that.

TAPPER: Georgia passed sweeping new voting legislation, including many restrictions, that some Democrats, such as Senator Reverend Raphael Warnock and Stacey Abrams, have compared to Jim Crow laws.

Now, you grew up in the Jim Crow South. Do you see the Georgia election law as the new Jim Crow?

CLYBURN: Yes, I do, no question about it.

And we keep talking about Georgia. But 43 -- I'm sorry. I saw the other day 47 states have now proposed. Georgia is just the one that is taking it to the -- to finality.

But these thoughts are being expressed in other states as well. And they know full well that these are ways to suppress voters, to keep people from exercising their rights. And we can't all just talk about what they say. Let's look at the impact of what they do.

I grew up in the South, yes, but I grew up in a parsonage. And I grew up believing it is not their words that matter; it's their deeds. And Matthew teaches us that. And today is Sunday.

TAPPER: Explain to our viewers who are familiar with Jim Crow laws and the hideous racism they represent and the segregation they represented who look at the Georgia voting restrictions and say, I don't understand how you can compare these voting restrictions that call for, for instance, new voter I.D. requirements, for vote by mail, fewer drop boxes, et cetera, and have a tough time seeing that in light -- in the same shade as Jim Crow laws that enforced segregation.

How -- why do you see them as similar?

CLYBURN: Well, because they are.

If you go all the way back into history, when we first started determining who was eligible to vote and who was not, they were property owners. They knew that people of color, people coming out of slavery did not own property.

And, therefore, no matter how many of them existed, they were not -- they were denied the right to vote because they didn't own property. And then they went from that to having disqualifiers. And they picked those offenses that were more apt to be committed by people of color to disqualify voters than they did for people who were not people of color. The whole history in the South of putting together those who are

eligible to vote is based upon the practices and the experiences of people based upon their race.

So, I would say to anybody, come on, just look at the history. And it's there.

What's on anybody's when you say, OK, we are going to deny voting places, we're going to get rid of drop boxes? We know we're going to create long lines. So, now let's make it a crime if you bring someone a bottle of water while they're standing in those long lines?

It's not what they intend. It's what the result is. So, they can say anything they want to say about it. Just look through it and look throughout history, and you will know that what is taking place today is a new Jim Crow, just that simple.

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TAPPER: You're leading a key House committee to investigate the Trump administration's coronavirus response.

So far, you say you have found that Trump officials bragged about political interference with CDC reports. They failed to address shortages of masks and PPE. They failed to prevent billions in small business fraud.

How do you think the Trump administration officials responsible should be held accountable? And do you think anyone potentially might face criminal liability?

CLYBURN: Well, I'm going to leave it up to the investigators.

I have a very good staff. They're doing incredible work. Mr. Alexander, the one that you made reference to it, did, in fact, boast about being able to get the CDC on two different occasions to change their findings -- or, you know, let's say, not the findings, but they changed the way they categorized those findings. Yes, he boasted about that.

And we ought to take a look at what that was all about. If he was doing things that may be criminal in nature, then we ought to bring that to light.

So, that's exactly what we're undertaking now. I'm not going to reach any conclusions here this morning. But I'm going to let my staff finish their work. And, hopefully, we will conclude for the American people exactly what took place.

TAPPER: House Majority Whip Jim Clyburn of South Carolina, thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

CLYBURN: Thank you very much for having me.

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