CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Bernie Sanders

Interview

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SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, I think it's a serious proposal dealing with some of the serious crises that we face.

I think every American understands that our infrastructure, our roads and our bridges, water systems, wastewater plants, are falling apart, and we can create millions of jobs rebuilding them. I think the vast majority of the American people understand that climate change is an existential threat to the planet.

We can create millions more jobs, good wages rebuilding, transforming our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy.

I think, also, most Americans know that we have a major housing crisis. And that's not only a half-a-million people who are homeless today. It is 19 million households that are spending 50 percent of their limited incomes on housing. All of those issues are dealt with in the president's plan.

What you're going to see right now, Jake, is that Congress is going to take a hard look at that plan. I think that, for example, as you indicated, in terms of climate, we're probably going to want to put more money into that area. I think there's a lot of work that has to be done in terms of health care, the high cost of prescription drugs, making our colleges affordable for young people, and dealing with student debt.

So, right now, I think, at an unprecedented moment, the president has given us a serious proposal. A lot more work has to be done in that regard.

TAPPER: So, do you think that things that one could argue are important, but not necessarily part of an infrastructure package, such as dealing with college debt, you think that that should be part of the bill?

SANDERS: Well, you know, it depends on what you call infrastructure.

Roads and bridges and tunnels are infrastructure. But I think many of us see a crisis in human infrastructure. When a working class family can't find good-quality, affordable child care, that's human infrastructure.

One of the areas that I am working on right now is the need to expand Medicare in order to provide dental care and hearing aids and eyeglasses for millions and millions of seniors who need these services, but can't afford it. Is that infrastructure? I think it is.

Look, Jake, the truth is, in so many ways, we are behind many other countries throughout the world in providing for working families and the elderly and the children. And I think now is the time to begin addressing our physical infrastructure and our human infrastructure. I want to see that happen as soon as possible.

TAPPER: That path, which is a path based very much in your principles as a progressive and as -- and in your leadership as the chairman, is a path that you know will make it more difficult to get Republican support in the Senate.

You just heard Secretary Granholm suggest that it seems -- at least my interpretation of what she said was it seems fine to her and to President Biden that they use reconciliation rules, so they would pass this package with 50 Democratic votes, plus Vice President Harris; they don't need the 60.

President Biden is still, at the very least, giving lip service to the idea of making this bipartisan, says he wants to meet with Republicans in the Oval Office to negotiate the bill.

Frankly, do you think he's wasting his time?

SANDERS: Well, we will see.

I mean, I think Secretary Granholm made the important point, is that what we are proposing, what the president is proposing is bipartisan. Vast -- millions and millions of Republicans, independents and Democrats understand the crises that they face, that we face as a nation, and want to go forward.

Unfortunately, you have a -- Republicans in the Congress who are moving very far to the right, who are not only ignoring what the American people want to see done. They are ignoring what people in their own party want to be done.

[09:20:01]

Let me tell you something. If you are Republican mayor in this country, you understand that you need significant help for infrastructure. If you are a Republican in an agricultural area, you understand what climate change is doing to the -- your ability to produce the crops that you need.

And, furthermore, I think there is in this country, Jake, an understanding that the level of income and wealth inequality that we have now is unsustainable and is immoral. We can't continue to have two people owning more wealth than the bottom 40 percent of the American people, major corporation after major corporation not paying a nickel in federal income tax.

TAPPER: Right.

SANDERS: So, when people say, well, isn't this an expensive proposal, it is.

But the time is long overdue to demand that the wealthiest people in this country and the largest corporations start paying their fair share of taxes.

TAPPER: So, if you focus just on 50 votes, on Democrats, if that's the expectation -- I'm not saying that that's your game plan, but if that's what you think is probably going to happen -- there's still an issue of party unity that might become -- that might be difficult and more difficult with infrastructure than with COVID relief.

Progressives such as yourself want to go big. There are more centrist Democrats, Joe Manchin, for example, who has proved himself to be in a real position of power, worried about cost. Manchin says it's incredibly important to him to make this bill bipartisan.

Your committee is going to play a key role in the process. Are you confident every Senate Democrat is going to support this bill when it comes time to vote, including Manchin?

SANDERS: Well, you will have to talk to Mr. Manchin.

But I think that, at the end of the day, you have got 50 Democrats in the caucus. Any one of them can say, you know, I'm not supporting this.

But we all understand that, in this unprecedented moment in American history, when we have gone through the worst year in the modern history of this country, with so many people dying and getting sick and our economy tanking, that we have got to work with the president on an agenda that speaks to the needs of the working class and the middle class and low-income people, who have for so many years really had their needs ignored.

So, I am confident. Look, there are differences of opinion. Every one of the Democrats has a different point of view. But, at the end of the day, I think Schumer has -- Chuck Schumer has been doing a good job trying to bring people together, to say, you know what, the future of America is at stake, the future of American democracy is at stake, because so many people have reached the conclusion that government doesn't address their needs.

Working people are working longer hours for low wages. We have got to speak to that pain that's out there. And if your question is, do I think we're going to come together to do it, yes, I do.

TAPPER: I should note that the Biden plan does not lift the cap on SALT taxes, state and local tax deductions. That overwhelmingly benefits high income earners in predominantly blue states.

Repealing it, however, is popular among Democrats, especially those from high-tax states like California, New York. A lot of House Democrats say they are not going to support the bill unless this SALT cap provision is included. Does that need to be in the bill?

SANDERS: Well, look, these are one of the million issues that are going to have to be dealt with.

At the end of the day, people who come from big cities have a different perspective than people who come from rural communities. And we're going to have to work these things out.

But I do believe, given the crises the country faces and the need to create millions of good-paying jobs, the need to expand health care, to guarantee health care to so many more people today who are uninsured or underinsured, the need to take on the pharmaceutical industry and lower the high cost of prescription drugs, I think you are going to see the Democratic Caucus coming together and pass very, very significant legislation.

TAPPER: All right, Senator Bernie Sanders, independent of Vermont, thank you for being here, sir.

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