CNN "The Lead with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Tim Kaine
Interview
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SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Well, Jake, I think the U.S. should demand a cease-fire. I asked this question yesterday, when there is a shooting war and innocent people are being killed on both sides, the U.S. is always aggressive in calling for a cease-fire. Instead, what we're reading is that there's efforts to get a U.N. Security Council resolution for a cease-fire and the U.S. is objecting to it.
I just don't think that is the place for the U.S. to be. And so, that's why I joined with Jon Ossoff and others in a statement Sunday that was about as crisply and simply written as can be in order to reduce Israeli and Palestinian casualties and in order to de-escalate violence, we called for a cease-fire.
[16:10:13]
I think that should be the American position. Much of what the Biden team is doing behind the scenes is important. Some of this diplomacy does have to take place in quiet private discussions, not only with Israel but with Gulf State and Arab neighbors that have normalized relations with Israel. But I think standing publicly for a cease-fire is what we would do in virtually any situation and we ought to do it here.
TAPPER: Sources tell me that the Biden White House is trying to refrain from having a public spat with Netanyahu since they learned a lesson during the Obama years that having such a confrontation only reduces American influence with Netanyahu, especially at a time when he's under some domestic political pressure and vulnerabilities.
Do you -- is that what you're hearing as well and do you accept that reasoning?
KAINE: I don't accept the reasoning. Your reporter did a good job of saying on the Israeli side of this, they're not feeling the pressure for a cease-fire. If they felt pressure for a cease-fire, they'd be more likely to do it.
And again, what's the purpose of the cease-fire? Stop Israelis from being killed. Stop Hamas from lobbing rockets into Israel, and stop Palestinian kids from being killed. And then in that space where there's a ceasefire, to have dialogue about how we move forward.
The tragedy of this, Jake, is I went to Israel for the first time in 1998 and the prospects for peace in accord with the U.N.'s original goal, and U.S. policy of Israel and Palestine living peacefully side by side have only gone backwards in the last 25 years.
And now, you have governance channels and Israel that's having a hard time forming a government and a Palestine that's canceling elections, you have governance challenges on the top of frustrations about the absence to the progress of peace.
TAPPER: Yeah.
KAINE: Let's get a cease-fire and let the U.S. do what frankly President Trump did not do -- let the U.S. get back together with allies and try to figure out how we can be helpful in moving in the right direction.
TAPPER: So, today, White House Press Jen Psaki took a shot at the Trump administration for its efforts in the Middle East, including the Abraham Accords which brought peace between -- treaties between Israel and other Sunni Arab nations.
Take a listen.
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PSAKI: Aside from putting forward a peace proposal that was dead on arrival, we don't think they did anything constructive really to bring an end to the long-standing conflict in the Middle East.
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TAPPER: I -- do you agree? Do you --
KAINE: I agree with the front half of what Jen Psaki said and not the back half.
So on the front half, it is true. The Trump administration put a peace proposal on the table, but they didn't even talk to the Palestinians about it, and that's not a proposal. That's not a good faith proposal.
However, on the Abraham Accords, I do support them and I'll tell you, why Jake. Arab nations for years have said they support the Palestinians. That's their -- that's their statement, but they have done virtually nothing to back it up. Once these Arab nations normalized with Israel, they really have skin
in the game right now. They have their own domestic populations saying to them you've normalized relations with Israel. What are you trying to do to help out people in the West Bank and maybe bring about some increasing order in Gaza?
I do know this. The administration -- and this is wise in my view -- is reaching out to the nations that have normalized in these Abraham Accords and saying, what can you do? There's things that the U.S. can do and things that the Arab nations have to do to try to promote greater and economic prosperity in Palestine.
So, I think the Abrahamic Accords sort of upped the skin in the game that these Arab nations have and the U.S. should be using diplomacy to get them to be more involved in a solution.
TAPPER: Senator, some experts told "The New York Times" that war crimes are being committed by both the Palestinian and Israeli sides, writing, quote, Hamas has fired more than 3,000 rockets towards Israeli cities, a clear war crime.
And Israel, although it says it takes measures to avoid civilian casualties, have subjected Gaza to such an intense bombardment, killing families and flattening buildings that it likely constitutes a disproportionate use of force, also a war crime.
I doubt that you disagree with the idea that Hamas, which the U.S. State Department considers to be a terrorist group --
KAINE: They are.
TAPPER: -- firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel is not a war crime.
But what about the disproportionality by Israel, is that a violation of international norms?
KAINE: Jake, let me -- let me come at it this way. The last thing we need right now in Israel and Palestine is more blame game for each side. You know, you started it, you're committing a war crime. You started it. You're a terrorist.
We've had that for the last 50 or 70 years and it's gotten us nowhere.
[16:15:03]
I saw former Vice President Pence today trying to blame this on the Biden administration.
If you think more blame game is going to get us to an answer here, you have not been paying attention.
So, instead of a blame game, what I'm saying as a member of the Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committee, I've been to Israel more times than any other country. I'm a strong supporter of Israel's right to defend itself, but I'm also a strong supporter of an Israel and Palestine living peacefully side by side. That should be our goal. More blame isn't going to get us there.
Let's do a cease-fire. That's what will be a small step towards possibly getting us there. No more beating around the bush.
I think the U.S. should stand strongly for a cease-fire. We called for it in Yemen. We called for it in Afghanistan. We called for it every time there's a war or crisis in the world that puts innocent civilians at risk. We need a ceasefire between Israel and Palestine.
TAPPER: And just to be clear, you do not think that the Biden White House is exerting sufficient pressure behind the scenes to get that cease-fire?
KAINE: I think they're doing a lot of good things behind the scenes that ought to be done behind the scenes, but I think a more forceful call for a cease-fire like we would do anywhere else in the world is something that the U.S. should do and we shouldn't be seen as, you know, the laggard in the U.N. Security Council in calling for a cease- fire.
TAPPER: All right. Senator Tim Kaine, thanks so much for your time today. Appreciate it.
KAINE: Absolutely.
TAPPER: The House Republican leader comes out against the commission to investigate the MAGA riot. Is he afraid of the truth, of Trump, both?
KAINE: And several states report zero COVID deaths for the first time in months as the CDC issues a new warning about something that could prolong this pandemic.
Stay with us.
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