NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Bernie Sanders
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CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Two times, in 2016 and 2020, Bernie Sanders ran for president as an unapologetic progressive, seeking vast increases in government social spending. Both times, he lost the Democratic nomination to perceived-to-be more cautious, centrist candidates: Hillary Clinton in 2016, Joe Biden last year. But with President Biden's proposals for vast new spending, it's fair to ask, did Senator Sanders lose the battles, but win the party's war of ideas? Well, Bernie Sanders joins me now. Senator Sanders, I saw you smirk there when I did that little tease about that. So go ahead and answer the question: do you feel as if, you know, when you look at your two campaigns, yes, you're not president, but do you feel as if you won the war of ideas inside your party?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, it's not just me. I think what you saw is millions of people standing up, grassroots activists standing up and saying, "You know what? At a time of massive income and wealth inequality, maybe," and Chuck, this is a radical idea, "but maybe, just maybe, government should represent the needs of a struggling working class and middle class, and not just the 1% and wealthy campaign contributors." And I think all over this country, people said, "Look, there are massive problems exacerbated by the pandemic." And I think President Biden looked around him. He said, "You know what? We've got to address those problems, not worry about the rich and the powerful." So we are beginning to make some progress in dealing with issues that have been neglected for decades.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious -- your focus. When it comes to seeing these plans get passed, how important is the pay-for part of this conversation? How much of this, in your mind, is you're willing, "You know what? Deficit spending. These are investments. You'll get return"? And how important do you think it is that you reform the tax code and use that to pay for this?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think, number one, most importantly, we have to deal with the crises facing this country. We have massive income and wealth inequality. Half our people live on paycheck to paycheck. We've got to raise the minimum wage to a living wage. You've got to do that. We have an infrastructure that is collapsing. We've got to address the existential threat of climate change. And when you do that, Chuck, when you make those investments, we create millions of good paying jobs. We have -- we are the only major country not to guarantee health care to all people as a right, the only major country not to have paid family and medical leave. We pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. Hundreds of thousands of kids can't afford to go to college, and millions leave school deeply in debt. Well, you know what? You've got to address those issues. Meanwhile, you've got two people on top who own more wealth than the bottom 40 percent of America. You've got major corporation after major corporation not paying one nickel in federal income tax. Warren Buffett, one of the richest guys in the world, reminds us that the effective tax rate for working families is higher than it is for the billionaire class. So in terms of pay for, yeah, I do think we need progressive taxation, which says to the very rich -- Biden says the cap should be, the floor should be $400,000. Nobody under that should pay more in taxes. But yes, the very rich and large corporations should start paying their fair share of taxes to help us rebuild America and create the jobs that we need.
CHUCK TODD:
If you had to make the choice -- because some of your Democratic Senate colleagues seem to have a little bit of nervousness about voting for some of these tax increases. But they will vote for the spending. Will you take the spending if it doesn't come with the, with the tax increases?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, the devil is in the details, obviously. But I think what has got to happen is we have got to begin addressing the enormous crises facing this country. And that is what I think the president is trying to do. I think once we start discussing these issues in the Congress, there will be differences of opinion. But I think there is a consensus, at least within the Democratic caucus, that now is the time to start protecting working families and the middle class and not just the 1 percent.
CHUCK TODD:
One of the things not included in the president's plan was some things that you wanted to see, including lowering the eligibility age to Medicare in particular being the biggest one there. And I want to ask you about it in conjunction with this statement that James Carville made, and I want to bring it up here. It has to do with Joe Manchin. He says, "The Democratic party can't be more liberal than Sen. Joe Manchin. That's the fact. We don't have the votes." And I bring this up because Senator Manchin has said he's not in favor of lowering that eligibility age. Do you think that was probably why--
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
James Carville --
CHUCK TODD:
-- why Joe Biden didn't include your provision in his plan?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No, I don't think so. James Carville can live in his world. I don't think he's terribly relevant to what happens in Congress right now. Here is the story. Very simple story is that right now, for the last 55 years since Medicare was developed in 1965, it has not included coverage for dental care, hearing aids and eyeglasses. And I can tell you, in Vermont and all over this country, you've got teeth -- you've got senior citizens whose teeth are rotting in their mouths, older people who can't talk to their grandchildren because they can't hear them because they can't afford a hearing aid, and people who can't read a newspaper because they can't afford glasses. So to say that dental care and hearing aids and eyeglasses should be a part of Medicare makes all the sense in the world. Second of all, we're going to pay for this. This is the pay-for. Right now, as I think every American understands, we pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. We're getting ripped off every day by the pharmaceutical industry who, in some cases, charges us ten times more for the same drug that's sold in Canada or in other countries. So what we want to do is what the American people want to do. We want to negotiate prescription drug prices with the industry through Medicare. When you do that, you save about $500 billion. And that can cover the cost of dental care, eyeglasses and hearing aids under Medicare, as well as lowering the eligibility age to 60. That's what we have to do. We have a pay-for for that.
CHUCK TODD:
Before I let you go, we have -- obviously the virus is pretty out of control in India. It's not in good shape in Brazil. These are two pretty big countries that could have an impact on us, both our health and our economy. Our vaccine distribution -- you know, we have a lot here. Should we start sharing it faster than we are now, particularly when you see what's going on in our hemisphere and in India? Should we be more aggressive? It seems like we've been a bit, some might argue, overly cautious about our vaccine supply.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I think a couple of things, Chuck. The answer is yes. I think we have got to obviously make sure that every American gets vaccinated as quickly as possible. But I do think, not only do we have a moral responsibility to help the rest of the world, it's in our own self-interest because if this pandemic continues to spread in other countries, it's going to come back and bite us at one point or another. But the second thing we should do is not only make sure that excess vaccines in the United States get around to countries that need it. We should deal with this issue through the World Trade Organization of protecting the intellectual property rights of the drug companies. And I think what we have got to say right now to the drug companies, when millions of lives are at stake around the world, yes, allow other countries to have these intellectual property rights so that they can produce the vaccines that are desperately needed in poor countries. There is something morally objectionable about rich countries being able to get that vaccine, and yet millions and billions of people in poor countries are unable to afford it.
CHUCK TODD:
Glad you brought up the intellectual property rights issue, because that is something -- we want to get manufacturing started as soon as possible in some of these remote areas. Anyway, Senator Bernie Sanders, the progressive independent from Vermont, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Thank you very much.
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