CNN Larry King Live

SHOW: CNN LARRY KING LIVE 21:00

HEADLINE: Strike on Iraq

GUESTS: David Hackworth, Kay Bailey Hutchison, Dick Durbin, Robert B. Johnston, George McGovern, Alan Simpson, Colin Soloway

BYLINE: Larry King, Brent Sadler, Jane Arraf

HIGHLIGHT:
War in Iraq continues.

BODY:
LARRY KING, HOST:
Joining us now in Washington is Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican of Texas, a member of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee; and Senator Dick Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, a member of the Select Committee on Intelligence.

Senator Hutchison, how goes it from your perspective?

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON ®, TEXAS: Well, of course, Larry, all day today we were on the Senate floor, but we were going into the cloak room to look at the footage of the bombing. We were all just mesmerized by it, just like everyone in America. And really every briefing we've had says that it is going really well.

KING: And what do you hear, Senator Durbin?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: The same. And I thought it was interesting. As you sat with a group of senators in the cloakroom and they watched in real time that this war was unfolding, you couldn't help but be impressed by the awesome effectiveness of our military, but also struck by the fact that you were watching in real time the destruction of a city, the destruction of lives.

We certainly want to go after the Saddam Hussein followers and those responsible for the barbaric conduct in that nation. But we know, despite our best efforts and our best technology, there will be other victims.

KING: Do you expect this to take—the president warned the other night that it will not be as quick as some think. Do you expect it to take some time, Senator Hutchison?

HUTCHISON: You know I think it's going to be short. The president is warning us, he wants us to be patient. But it looks to me like people are falling fast. They see the handwriting on the wall. Certainly this bombing today made believers out of a lot of people, and it looks as if anecdotally many of the Iraqi people are very glad that there will be a regime change. So I'm optimistic that it will be short.

KING: Senator Durbin, we have 14 coalition vets, two of them in combat. Is that about par for this course in the third day?

DURBIN: That's hard to say, Larry. But I have to be honest with you. One of those casualties was from my state of Illinois, Ryan Bilprey (ph), who was a Marine Corps captain who died in the helicopter crash from St. Anne (ph), Illinois. And I called his family today and spoke to his sister Alyce (ph), and they were grief stricken by his loss.

And I think we have to remember the brave men and women serving in our military. And regardless of our debate on foreign policy, we're going to stand behind them all of the way.

KING: Colonel Hackworth, does an Army make pre-impressions before they go out as to how many might get killed?

HACKWORTH: Absolutely. For example, in Normandy, Dwight Eisenhower was faced with 10,000 casualties. He came out with 3,000 casualties. He thought he got away light.

During Desert Storm, a war college study that I presented on your show said that we'd have 50,000 casualties. It was later refined to 20,000. We ended up for Desert Storm having 148 casualties. So they make an estimate. You can never tell, because war seldom goes according to what the good book calls for.

KING: Joining us now, Colonel Hackworth and senators. In Tucson, Arizona is Lieutenant General, Robert B. Johnston, United States Marine Corps retired. He served as chief of staff for General Norman Schwarzkopf, "Stormin' Norman," during Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm.

His other assignments commanding general of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force and commander of the United Task Force for Operation Restore Hope in Somalia. We asked it earlier of Colonel Hackworth. We'll ask General Johnston the same thing. Is this battle going according to the way you thought it would?

LT. GEN. ROBERT B. JOHNSTON, U.S. (RET.) DESERT STORM CHIEF OF STAFF: Larry, it's a most impressive demonstration of the best- equipped, best-trained and best-led troops in the world. It clearly has maybe not gone exactly how they predicted initially, but it shows the enhanced flexibility in our commanders in the field.

The fact that they pushed out early towards Umm Qasr with the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and the Brits and the Army took off as fast as they could towards Baghdad. The air campaign appears to be exceedingly successful. Not much different in some respects from the first days of war.

We had something like 2,000 sorties every day. I think the distinction now is the enormous accuracy of the bombs that are being dropped in Baghdad. Pinpoint accuracy, obviously satellite directed. And I think the most reassuring part of that is the great likelihood that civilian casualties will be minimized, not only by the nature of the targets, the fact that they're somewhat isolated, but the fact is that we're essentially (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on a dime. And hopefully there will be—no casualties will be the best outcome.

KING: Do you expect, General, street fighting in Baghdad? Do you expect them to be hunkered down?

JOHNSTON: Well, you know Colonel Hackworth said the same thing. I think as we approach Baghdad, one of the real measures is going to be the performance of the Republican Guard. Whether they stay and fight, and once we get through that—which we certainly will—then it's the inner circle, really the top Republican Guard, the 15,000 or 30,000 that are in five brigades. If they fight into town it could certainly change the nature of the operation.

I would point out, however, that I think the Republican Guard, while some of the troops are relatively new troops since the Gulf War, most of their senior commanders have been there before. They've been pounded by our B-52s many times. And I am hopeful that they will have second thought about wanting to stay and fight.

KING: Senator Hutchison, do you have any thoughts in that regard as to whether they will stay or will capitulate and whether Saddam is dead or not?

HUTCHISON: Well, I think they are in disarray. Everything that Colonel Hackworth said earlier is true from what we've heard, that they are in disarray. That first night—and I want to add something to what the general was saying about the great precision equipment that we have. We also have better intelligence than we have had in the past.

We, in the last year, have really focused on intelligence since 9/11, it was such a disaster. And I think that really paid off. It paid off in that first hit. It was a big one.

We don't know everything yet, but I think it did put their leaders in disarray. That's what we believe and hope and I think that means that we may have an easier time. That's, of course, our great hope.

KING: Senator Durbin, did the way this started surprise you?

DURBIN: It did. And this morning, when we had our briefing from the Pentagon, I spoke to General McCrystal (ph) and I said, "I'm not an expert, but why was this so different from the Persian Gulf War?" And he explained that of course they thought they had a target of opportunity, Saddam Hussein himself, with the earliest bombing.

But then they had the soft part of the war, where they went in and tried to take away what they considered to be Saddam Hussein's weapons, to go after the so-called scud (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in western Iraq so that they couldn't terrorize the Israelis and bring other nations into this war. And then to try to protect the oil fields.

And as the general said to me, if they lit up a thousand oil wells in Iraq, it would not only destroy the economy and create all sorts of havoc to the environment, but it would create instability for a time to come. So the two soft targets were the first they went after, and then of course the air strikes came to follow.

KING: Let's do something that we haven't done in the three days of coverage and include phone calls. Let's take some as we go along. From Rye (ph) in New York—Hello.

RYE: Yes, my question—or it's more of a comment for Colonel Hackwork—is that I'm particularly disturbed by his demeanor on television. Laughing, talking about individuals dying when our soldiers and Iraqi civilians are dying over there. And he is laughing on television. I find that highly inappropriate.

KING: Want to respond, Hack?

HACKWORTH: I've got an Irish mother with a good sense of humor, and I've spent 12 different wars, eight different battlefields. I've got to tell you, maybe a soldier develops that kind of sense of humor. But I certainly grieve for the war. I'm not a war person. And I guess that is why I always smile.

KING: Is it a little bit of a nervous laugh, Hack?

HACKWORTH: No, it's not. It's just my nature. I have eight years of living on battlefields. I guess I've seen it all. I understand what General Sherman (ph) was talking about that war is hell, but you've got to skip along with a sense of humor.

KING: General, have you served with people like Hackworth?

JOHNSTON: We've had a few colorful Marines in our day, but maybe not quite Colonel Hackworth's level of uniqueness.

KING: Is it—General, if they wanted to surrender, how do they do that? What do they do? Do they do it through communiques? How does an army this size for this kind of country surrender?

JOHNSTON: You know, Larry, quite frankly, the old white flag is one of the best ways of demonstrating their willingness to surrender and put their hands up. But I think in terms of the large unit, we have made all sorts of provisions for communication with the leaders, particularly the Republican Guard and the leadership in Baghdad.

It's not going to be hard for them to pick up a phone or some radio and communicate to us that they're ready to capitulate. So I think the evidence will be pretty clear. It won't be hard to do.

KING: Tampa, Florida, on the special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. And, by the way, we'll be with you all weekend as well. We'll be with you seven nights a week for as long as it takes. Tampa, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Larry. My question for your panel is regarding Israel. During the first Gulf War, Israel sat out despite 39 scud attacks by Iraq. Now Israel says if attacked by Iraq, they will return fire. How do they feel this will handle during the war, and how will it affect the peace process in the Middle East?

KING: Senator Durbin, do you want to handle that first?

DURBIN: Well, I think that's why one of our first efforts was in western Iraq to go after the sources of the scud missiles. And the general who briefed us this morning said he was well aware of them from the earlier Persian Gulf War. Our hope is not only to protect this Israelis, but to stop this conflict from widening to include other nations.

The ultimate impact on the peace process remains to be seen. I honestly believe that if we are going to come to a peaceful relationship with the Islamic world, we have to deal not only with the tyrants, like Saddam Hussein, but we have to deal with the situation, this almost intractable situation between Israel and Palestine, to guarantee that both people have a safe and secure country to live in.

KING: Senator Hutchison, this war, though, is not about Israel, is it?

HUTCHISON: No, it isn't. It's about the war on terrorism and making sure that we don't have a 9/11 with a weapon of mass destruction. That's what this war is about.

KING: Colonel Hackworth, do you fear Israel might get hit with another scud and this time retaliate?

HACKWORTH: Well that's a great fear, and that's why so much effort has gone down to prevent that. Let's hope not. And certainly, General Johnston, who was out there and was really concerned when 39 scud missiles landed in Israel, would probably be the best guy to comment on this.

KING: He sure would. That's why we saved him for last. General?

JOHNSTON: There's no question about it. You know during the last Gulf War, as you'll remember, when we started the air campaign, almost immediately the first scud hit Israel. We were most concerned about Israel becoming involved in the war. In fact, we consumed many of our sorties to go against the mobile scud targets on the west, the ones that were within range of Israel. And we knew the great inclination of Israel to become involved in the war once they were hit. We did a Trojan effort to keep them out of it and clearly we need to keep them out of this conflict.

KING: Colonel Hackworth, how do you—you're in the desert, you're in unfamiliar territory. How do you keep morale up?

HACKWORTH: Well, by good leadership. Making sure your troops are being taken care of, by leading from the front, by understanding that you've trained your team to the highest quality. And you're just going on with your job. And that's what a good leader is all about, and we are seeing an exhibition of that now with these fine units, the Marines on the right and the Army on the left, moving forward with such incredible speed and almost—ever occurred in military history to move this quickly.

KING: General Chafee James (ph) told me once, General Johnston, that nobody hates war more than the warrior. Do you agree with that?

JOHNSTON: Absolutely a true statement.

KING: We all remember...

JOHNSTON: Nobody wants to go to war, we just know we had a need to know how to do it.

KING: Chafee (ph) was the first black four star general. We are talking with Lieutenant General Robert B. Johnston, United States Marine Corps Retire, chief of staff for General Schwarzkopf in Desert Shield and Desert Storm; Colonel Hackworth, the highly decorated veteran, award-winning military correspondent as well; Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican of Texas; and Senator Dick Durbin, Democrat of Illinois.

We will expect to have headlines momentarily, and when they're ready we'll go to them with Heidi Collins as soon as they're ready. Let's go to Oak Lawn, Illinois, to take a call—hello.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Larry. How are you doing?

KING: Fine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is for Senator Durbin. I'm from your part of Illinois; I'm from Oak Lawn. What I'd like to know is—in 1983 I know what it means to lose Marines over in Beirut. My heart goes out to those Marines.

But sitting here watching TV and knowing about our homeland security and seeing all these people protesting, what do you think about all of the police that had to come from and take care of these protesters, and about the security and about the money that we have? I'll sit and listen to you. Thank you.

KING: OK, sir. Thank you.

DURBIN: Well, I think we ought to keep this in perspective. One of the things we treasure in this country is the right to debate and dissent. And there are people in America who really disagree with our foreign policy and have expressed it in a peaceful manner, and they are entitled to do that. I think that is part of their right as a citizen.

I have had my differences with this administration when it comes to foreign policy. I voted against the use of force resolution in October; some 23 senators did. But when it came to voting just a day or two ago, a resolution supporting the troops, 99 senators, all of the senators present, voted in favor of it.

I know that the feelings are strongly held by those who are opposed to this war. I can see it from the streets of Chicago and from the footage we've received.

When it comes to the homeland security question, I think we have to do an awful lot more. When we raised this to an orange alert we increased the expenses of state and local governments across America. And I don't think we've met our obligation in Washington to help those governments pay for the protection we need in our home towns.

KING: Let's get some news headlines from Heidi Collins. And we'll be right back on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Aaron Brown returns at the top of the hour—Heidi.