CNN Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer

SHOW: CNN LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER 12:00

HEADLINE: The New Iraq

GUESTS: Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, William Cohen, Jean- David Levitte, Arlen Specter, Dick Durbin, Darrell Issa, Pat Lang, Joseph Wilson, Donna Brazile, Peter Beinart, Robert George, Jonah Goldberg, Zaab Sethna

BYLINE: Wolf Blitzer, Barbara Starr, Suzanne Malveaux, Nic Robertson, Sheila MacVicar, Jerrold Kessel, Wesley Clark, David Grange, Bruce Morton

HIGHLIGHT:
What will be the future of Iraq?

BODY:
WOLF BLITZER, HOST:
We're joined now by two leading members of the United States Senate: in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Republican Senator Arlen Specter. He's a member of the Appropriations Committee. He's put a lot of work into this war, especially the post-war budget. And in Chicago, the Illinois Democratic senator, Dick Durbin. He serves on the Intelligence Committee, as well as others.

Senators, always good to have both of you on the program.

Senator Durbin, let me ask you first: You voted against authorizing the president, giving him the green light to go to war, way back, I think it was in October. Looking back on that vote right now—a lot of your fellow Democrats voted against the president as well—was that a mistake, knowing what we know now?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: No, I have no second thoughts about that. I really believe that war has to be our last option.

I think the new foreign policy of this administration is one that has yet to be proven. If we are going to undertake a policy of preemption, to attack countries around the world whether they pose an imminent threat to us or not, it is a major departure from where we have been over the last half-century.

I am glad that we have seen Saddam Hussein removed. I am glad that the people of Iraq now have an opportunity for self-governance. But our responsibility will continue.

BLITZER: What about that—let me let Senator Specter respond—this whole notion of preemptive strikes to remove these kinds of dictators, like Saddam Hussein? The president did it this time. Is that a precedent that we should be watching for?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER ®, PENNSYLVANIA: With the experience of September 11th, I think we have to act when we know there is a danger. We knew that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction in 1998, when Saddam kicked the United Nations out of Iraq, and I think it was appropriate to move ahead.

And I think that the decisive success that the United States has had is backing up what President Bush has done.

BLITZER: Senator Durbin, I want to you listen to what the foreign minister of Australia said earlier today, suggesting that victory is about to be declared. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER DOWNER, FOREIGN MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA: The formal proclamation will come in the next few days. There's just some tidying up going on in relation to the proclamation. Work is still being done on that, and there have been discussions between the Americans and us, and also with the British, about the exact wording of the proclamation. But it will happen in the next few days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Is that premature or right about course, Senator Durbin, to declare victory?

DURBIN: Well, it's certainly good news, and it reflects a fact that our military has done an outstanding job under the president's leadership.

We knew they would prevail, we're glad that they did in a relatively short period of time, with the number of casualties that were reported, as sad as they are, not reaching the level that they did in the Persian Gulf War.

But make no mistake, Nic Robertson told us earlier, there's a lot more to be done in Iraq. There is no history of self-governance. There is no history of open economy. We have to try to help the Iraqi people come to grips with their future, and it's a responsibility that is going to be awesome. We just appropriated, two weeks ago, $80 billion as a downpayment toward that war and toward our effort in Iraq. Much more is going to follow.

BLITZER: Senator Specter, the retired U.S. Army general, Jay Garner, is now in charge of trying to put some sort of stability, some sort of a reconstruction to Iraq. Is he the man who can lead this interim authority between Saddam Hussein and a new, at some point down the road, democratic, stable regime in Iraq?

SPECTER: I think General Garner is the man. There is a great deal to be done.

I'm very much concerned about the issue of the United Nations removing sanctions. We have had the Russian foreign minister, in the last couple of days, say that only the U.N. inspectors can make a determination that Iraq no longer has weapons of mass destruction. And I think that's—I think that's very disingenuous.

I believe that General Garner is in a position to move ahead. I think that what you have in reality here is a United-States-coalition- forces trusteeship. We have to make it very plain and follow through that, when we deal with Iraqi oil, we're dealing for the benefit of the Iraqi people.

But to have the Russians and the French now say that we cannot move ahead and cannot take control until the United Nations relieves the sanctions is just a little bit of sophisticated international blackmail.

BLITZER: But, Senator Specter, the United Nations Security Council imposed the sanctions. Aren't they the ones that have to remove the sanctions?

SPECTER: Well, I would like to see the U.N. have a significant role. And I would like to see the U.N.'s presence give assurance to the Arab world and to the rest of the world.

But if they're going to take a position for their own economic benefit, as you have Russia and France now doing, which they did before, in being dissenters against what the United States, Britain and the coalition forces wanted to do, they're really holding that over our head. I think it's little bit of sophisticated international blackmail.

The purpose of the sanctions are gone. Now that Saddam is gone, the weapons of mass destruction, Iraq has been demilitarized, the threat is gone, there's no reason why those sanctions should not be removed and the United States ought not to have a relatively free hand dealing in Iraq so long as it's a trusteeship for the benefit of the people of Iraq.

BLITZER: Senator Durbin, is Senator Specter right?

DURBIN: Well, I'm troubled by what appears to be an unseemly scramble for the spoils of war here. Let's keep in mind that a lot of Americans and members of our coalition have paid the ultimate sacrifice and have really shown themselves to be people of courage to bring us to this moment in time. And now to have this scramble over who is going to be first in line at the Iraqi oil, or the rebuilding of Iraq, whether it's going to include certain countries, whether it's going to include certain businesses that are friendly to this White House—you know, the sooner we put that behind us the better.

I agree with Senator Specter, the future of Iraq should be in the hands of the people of Iraq. All of the world, with the United States leading, should come and stand behind the people of Iraq and demonstrate to the rest of the world that our goal in this struggle was not for territory or for treasure, but to give the people of Iraq a chance for freedom, a chance for self-governance and an economy that can work.

BLITZER: Senator Durbin, we heard from Senator Lugar earlier today. He's suggesting—he's the chairman of Foreign Relations Committee, as you know—that U.S. troops probably are going to have to stay in Iraq for about five years. That sounds like a long time.

Are you ready to support a U.S. military presence, a robust presence in Iraq for five years?

DURBIN: We have no choice. At this point in time, we have been responsible for the removal of a ruthless dictator, we have created a vacuum in Iraq, which has no history of self-governance in modern time and certainly has had an economy which has been directed by a corrupt regime, an economy now devastated by war. We have no choice but to stay to make certain that this is a stable and secure country for years to come.

And the United States is going to have a special responsibility in that. I hope others will join us. We can use their help, not only in the area of foreign assistance but to demonstrate that a coalition contains just not the war coalition but a larger coalition of the willing that may include, I hope it includes, Arab states, so that we can at least try to dissuade those who think that our motives have been selfish in what we have accomplished there.

BLITZER: We've got to take a quick break, but very briefly, Senator Specter, are you ready for a five-year military presence in Iraq?

SPECTER: I think it is too soon to make any determination or estimate as to how long we have to be there. I think the sooner we get the real estate under an Iraqi government, the sooner we turn the government back over to the Iraqis, the better off we are.

So I'm not prepared to make any five-year commitments. I want to take it a step at a time, with the view to turning it back to the Iraqis at the earliest possible moment.

BLITZER: All right. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to ask Senators Specter and Durbin to stand by. We'll continue our conversation with them. We'll also be taking phone calls for them.

We'll check the latest developments when LATE EDITION returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our special LATE EDITION. We'll continue our conversation with Senators Arlen Specter and Dick Durbin in just a moment.

And let's bring back Senators Arlen Specter and Dick Durbin to pick up on that specific question.

Senator Specter, you heard the president earlier today say that the Syrian president may be moving in the right direction. Let me be precise. He said, "There are some positive signs coming from Syria. They seem to be beginning to get the message."

Are you confident that this new young leader of the Syrian government, Senator Specter, is ready to clamp down, for example, on Hezbollah and other groups the State Department brands as terrorist organizations?

SPECTER: Wolf, it's been a learning curve for Bashar Asad. I've met with him three times. I've made many trips to Syria over the course of the past 15 years, almost every year. And I think that there is still very, very substantial influence by the old guard.

But I think the military success in Iraq has had a profound effect everywhere. Former President Rafsanjani of Iran is talking about a plebiscite in Iran to take up the issue of dealing with the United States. North Korea has changed. The Washington Post reports today that Hamas may voluntarily leave Damascus. That's what a Hamas leader said. I doubt very much that Hamas will do anything on a voluntary basis.

There has been a real bone of contention about Syria harboring terrorists. And President Bush has made it emphatic that anyone who harbors terrorists is guilty of terrorism themselves.

Whether, at this point, Syria will take the next step really remains to be seen. But it's the best climate, the best opportunity in modern times.

BLITZER: And let me pick up that point with Senator Durbin.

You're a member of the Intelligence Committee. The CIA recently issued a study suggesting—and I'll put it up on the screen—Syria has a stockpile of the nerve agent sarin and is trying to develop more toxic and persistent nerve agents.

Sounds very familiar to what they used to say about Iraq.

DURBIN: It's such a mixed bag when it comes to Syria. Right after September 11th, we were shocked and surprised, pleasantly surprised, that they came forward and volunteered their intelligence sources to help fight the war on terrorism. They were supportive of the United States, years ago, in the Persian Gulf War. They voted with us in the United Nations Security Council for the first important resolution.

So there's been some evidence that they're moving toward a more cooperative position with the United States. But as Senator Specter and others have said, you look at the history of Syria, it's history of harboring international terrorist organizations in Damascus, of sending its army to occupy southern Lebanon and harass Israel. It's really not the kind of conduct which we can countenance as part of a peaceful future for the Middle East.

This Bashar Asad has a moment in time, a moment in history, that he can seize. And if he seizes it correctly and moves his country forward in a peaceful and modern path, I think it will help to bring peace to the region.

BLITZER: And do you have confidence right now that President Bush can move Syria in the right direction, Senator Durbin?

DURBIN: Well, I think that we are, with our position in Iraq, certainly going to be mindful of our proximity to Syria. And I think Syria will be mindful of it as well.

What we do in Iraq, incidentally—much like what happened when the fall of the Soviet Union occurred—what we demonstrate in Iraq, in terms of self-governance and a progressive economy and improvement in quality of life, I think will be a standard across the Middle East that was going to cause change in many of these countries, as much as the military action might have.

BLITZER: Senator Durbin and Senator Specter, thanks to both of you for joining us on our special LATE EDITION.

SPECTER: Nice to be with you, Wolf. Thank you.

BLITZER: Always good to have both of you on this program.

DURBIN: Thank you.