CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview with Congressman Adam Schiff

Interview

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ACOSTA: It's a friends and family plan, it seems.

All right, Kaitlan Collins, stand by. We will get more from you on all of this.

Let's get reaction from the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Adam Schiff.

Chairman, you say the president's decision to pardon Michael Flynn is yet another abuse of his pardon power. Why do you find this pardon so troubling?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Well, let's remember what Michael Flynn did.

After the election, in which the Russians helped the Trump campaign, Mike Flynn had a conversation with the Russian ambassador and, contrary to U.S. policy, which was to impose sanctions on Russia, tried get the Russians to back off any reaction, essentially: Don't react. We will take care of this.

That was, I think, the message he was trying to communicate. When he was asked about it by the FBI, he lied about it. When he was speaking to the vice president, he lied about it. The president said that he had to fire Mike Flynn because he was lying.

And now, after Flynn twice pled guilty to lying to the FBI, the president pardons him and wants to portray him as some kind of a hero. Well, heroes don't lie to the FBI about contacts they have with hostile foreign powers.

It is a body blow to our national security. It's also a body blow to the rule of law, and I think makes a mockery of our democracy to those watching from around the world.

ACOSTA: Chairman Schiff, news of Flynn's pardon was met with praise from some of your Republican colleagues, including the House minority leader, Kevin McCarthy, who said the president is right to pardon the respected three-star general, as he put it.

What's your response to that?

SCHIFF: Well, Mr. McCarthy has shown over the last four years that there is no bottom to his willingness to debase himself to earn Trump's favor.

After all, this is the same majority -- or, rather, minority leader who was going to the trouble of separating Starburst candies for the president to make sure that he only got the ones that he liked.

[18:05:09]

So, I wouldn't look to Kevin McCarthy as an authoritative source here.

But we are seeing, much the same way that McCarthy and others have echoed the president's false claims about the election and the false statements about fraud in the election, he is now echoing the president's false statements about Michael Flynn.

ACOSTA: And we're learning President Trump is considering pardons for several members of his inner circle, including other figures from the Mueller investigation.

Do you view this as an attempt by the president to undo the conclusions of the special counsel's investigation and sort of rewrite the history of the Russia probe?

SCHIFF: I think it's in part an effort to vindicate himself somehow by pardoning people who were part of the same ugly cabal, for lack of a better description.

But I think it's also protective on his part. He doesn't want these people cooperating with authorities in the future, should he face legal liability. So, I would fully expect that there may be more pardons along these lines to reward people who have lied for him, to protect other people who may, under threat of their own jeopardy, need a pardon to fend off any potential testimony against the president as a private citizen.

You could also see the president prospectively pardoning people that he thinks might face charges. He may even try to pardon himself, which I don't think is constitutionally sustainable. But, nonetheless, there is no limit to this president's capacity for self-dealing.

ACOSTA: Can you do anything if he tries to pardon himself?

SCHIFF: Well, I have introduced a bill to make it clear that you cannot self-pardon. It's part of the Pro-Democracy Act, which would also require, in the case of a pardon like that of Flynn, that, in any case in which the president or member of their family is a witness, subject or target, that the complete investigative files in the event of a pardon would be provided to Congress.

That wouldn't stop a corrupt president from pardoning someone like Flynn, but it would be a disincentive, if that president knew that all of the information in the case would then be turned over to Congress.

ACOSTA: But just to ask you a follow-up question on that, that legislation would not pass the Congress, more than likely not be signed by the president, obviously.

Legally, though, could a self-pardon be challenged in court, do you think?

SCHIFF: Yes.

And the way it would work, frankly, is, if the Southern District of New York, for example, moved forward with the prosecution of Individual One, the president of the United States, for his participation in what the indictment described as directing and coordinating this campaign fraud scheme involving hush money payments and Michael Cohen, should they go forward with that, the president's lawyers, the former president's lawyers now, would argue that his self-pardon prevented the prosecution from going forward.

That would be litigated. The Department of Justice has taken the position in the past a president cannot pardon themselves. That certainly would be, I think, the position of the Justice Department going forward. And it would ultimately be up to the Supreme Court to decide.

But I will say this. As other justices have written, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. And if you interpret the pardon power as being so absolute as to allow to you pardon yourself, any president could act as criminally as they chose, and simply pardon themselves.

And I don't think the framers would have any such intention, nor do I think any responsible Supreme Court would likely interpret it that way.

ACOSTA: All right, Chairman Schiff, it sounds like a conversation we're going to be having in the coming weeks.

We thank you for your time. We appreciate it. And happy Thanksgiving to you.

SCHIFF: To you, too.

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