MSNBC "Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell - Transcript Interview with Adam Schiff

Interview

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Chairman Schiff, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

I want to begin with this U.S. attorney situation in Manhattan and then

switch over the Bolton revelations. But as a former U.S. attorney yourself,

as you watch this unfold this weekend, and this is a presidency that might

only have months left in it, it`s very strange to see any U.S. attorney

replaced in this timing on the calendar.

What were you watching as this drama unfolded?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well,

first, Lawrence, in the interest of full disclosure, I was an assistant

U.S. attorney. But I appreciate the promotion.

And, look, I think you`re absolutely right. This smells -- stinks to high

heaven, this effort to push out this independent U.S. attorney from an

office known for its independence and replace him in the last few months,

the presidency, with some golfing buddy of the president`s who`s got no

prosecutorial experience.

So, you know, I think what`s going on is quite clear, which is they`re

afraid of what this office under Mr. Berman`s leadership might do in terms

of their criminal investigations in the months ahead. And it`s part of a

pattern and practice of protecting the president`s friends, using the

Department of Justice to punish his enemies. It is a political strategy, an

abuse of the Justice Department that Bill Barr is complete -- completely

complicit in.

And the fact that Barr would lie about this is so true to form as well. And

you now have the U.S. attorney from New Jersey apparently saying that Barr

told him also that Berman had resigned when it wasn`t true and he was

shocked to learn that, in fact, Barr had misled him.

O`DONNELL: Chairman Schiff, one thing I have been wondering about is that

this is the -- this is the U.S. attorney`s office that has the Michael

Cohen prosecution, has done the Michael Cohen prosecution in which Donald

Trump is essentially an unindicted co-conspirator. He`s identified in all

the charging documents and the guilty plea as the person who directed and

participated in the crimes that Michael Cohen did as a conspiracy against

the United States. Donald Trump is in that -- in that criminal case.

Presumably, Donald Trump could be charged as a criminal defendant in that

case when he is no longer president.

Is there something, a new U.S. attorney could do in that office to somehow

derail what might happen in January or next year if there is a new Biden

appointed U.S. attorney in that office?

SCHIFF: Yes. I mean, there are ways that they could make it more difficult

for a subsequent U.S. attorney to bring that case by grants of some form of

immunity to cooperating witnesses or other actions that could be in a

subsequent case, even some grant to the president.

But the reality is what they may have been more concerned about is if

Berman stayed through the end of this term and the new president kept him

in that position, they know the position of that office in terms of the

president`s role in the conspiracy. They know the position of the career

prosecutors in that office. And this may have been an effort to try to

change that dynamic before there is a change in leadership.

But, frankly, I think probably the greater imperative was to make sure they

protected the president`s people between now and the end of the year, and

that may have a lot to do with Rudy Giuliani or it may just have to do with

the fact that Berman was not a loyal Trump crony the way -- the way he

wanted to replace him with, was -- apparently, he wasn`t out there playing

golf and praising Donald Trump. And so, that may have been the more

profound motive here.

O`DONNELL: Chairman Schiff, John Bolton has now, in effect, testified.

He`s done it in television programs in promoting his book, and that`s what

Steve Schmidt was condemning him for, not coming forward to your inquiry

and doing his constitutional duty and telling the truth about what he knew.

And so, when we look at the Republicans in the Senate blocking John Bolton

from testifying when he finally said he was willing to testify, and from

those same Republicans who blocked that testimony, we`re not hearing a

great deal of shock and surprise about what John Bolton has revealed. It

does seem like the Republicans in the Senate believed that what John Bolton

would say is what John Bolton is now publicly saying, and that`s the reason

they blocked his testimony.

If John Bolton was allowed to testify in the Senate trial, do you believe

it would have changed the course of history and changed the course of that

Senate vote?

SCHIFF: Well, I think, first of all, you`re absolutely right. The senators

who voted against hearing from John Bolton did so because they were afraid

of what he would say. They knew they lacked the courage to vote to remove

Donald Trump. Many of them had already found the evidence to be compelling,

and it would be so much more difficult for them to justify, rationalize

their vote to acquit Donald Trump if the country first heard from John

Bolton.

Indeed, when you look at Lamar Alexander, who I think has been more

straightforward than most, he basically said I didn`t need to hear from

John Bolton because I already believed Trump guilty. He was already proved

by the House guilty. Why did we need another witness to just add on to what

had already been proven?

You know, even though people like Alexander should not have wanted to

deprive the country of hearing about the president`s guilt and anything

else that John Bolton might have had to evaluate his fitness for office.

How many other votes would have been affected, I don`t know. I think the

bigger risk for the president was not John Bolton`s testimony alone but the

fact that John Bolton`s testimony may have led to other witnesses and an

unraveling of the Trump defense. That`s what Mitch McConnell was most

concerned about.

But you`re absolutely right. These senators were not trying to shield the

country of John Bolton because they thought he would exonerate the

president -- exactly the opposite.

O`DONNELL: And, Chairman Schiff, I want to get your reaction to John

Bolton basically criticizing you, criticizing Nancy Pelosi by saying that

the impeachment inquiry in the House moved too fast and that you should

have slowed down and worked through the court process to obtain his

testimony.

SCHIFF: Well, I would say a couple of things. First of all, Mr. Bolton has

had a very difficult time rationalizing why he had vital information to

share during the course of our impeachment investigation and he refused,

and he decided to save it for his book. That`s a very hard thing to

explain, and what he is trying to do is trying to say now the House should

have worked harder to find out that which John Bolton was keeping secret.

In other words, we should have found people who were more courageous than

John Bolton who might have told us what John Bolton refused to. That`s a

really pretty flimsy defense of his own failings. And in every way, I think

John Bolton condemns and indicts Donald Trump for doing things that were in

his best interest, but not the national interest. He himself showed his own

guilt of doing the same thing.

But, look, notwithstanding John Bolton`s lack of patriotism and lack of

courage, the allegations that he makes are very serious against the

president. They are completely consistent with what we showed during the

trial. And that is Donald Trump only makes decisions on the basis of what`s

good for him, not for the country.

That`s how you can understand his comments about, I asked my people to slow

down the testing -- obviously, deeply antagonistic to the health and

interest of the American people. But he felt it was politically

advantageous.

O`DONNELL: Chairman Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us

tonight. We really appreciate it.

SCHIFF: Thank you, Lawrence.

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