MSNBC "The Beat with Ari Melber" - Transcript Interview with Hakeem Jeffries
Interview
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MELBER: We`re back with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, who represents
Brooklyn, and is a member of Speaker Pelosi`s leadership team.
He spent years working on civil rights and has spoken about the role of rap
and protest music on the House floor.
Thank you for being here tonight.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Ari, good evening. And thank you for having
me.
Thank you for that very powerful compilation of the story of black artists
communicating the soundtrack of the African-American experience in real
time, as it relates to discrimination and police brutality.
And for far too long, that story has not been received. And, hopefully, now
it will.
MELBER: Appreciate you saying that.
And that`s why we wanted to hear from you, as someone who has traversed
this in your work. What lessons do you draw from the history here of black
activism, protest music, and what people need to do to listen and change?
JEFFRIES: Well, systemic racism has been in the soil of America for 401
years.
And it`s long past time that America confront it in a meaningful and
transformational way.
And I think, at the end of the day, our view, certainly within the
Congressional Black Caucus, is that in order for this time to be different,
we have to put the history of the African-American experience in the
context of why we are still, at this moment in time, dealing with issues of
police violence and police brutality and the police abuse of power, when
the evidence has been in front of the American people for a long period of
time, but it has not been believed.
MELBER: You talk about that disbelief.
And we look at the history there, particularly artists who had a platform,
who used, risked their -- some of their profits, and et cetera. And it
still was fought, and then the retaliation police brutality, which echoed
in 2020, police brutality at protests against police brutality.
What do you think the lesson is for people who look at that and feel at
times discouraged?
JEFFRIES: Well, we have to continue to move with the fierce urgency of now
at every level of government.
I`m so thankful for the peaceful protesters who have been out in the
streets, raising their voices, and exercising what is fundamentally one of
the pillars of our democracy, protest, freedom of speech, freedom of
assembly, freedom of expression, and the right to petition your government
for change.
And, certainly, within the House of Representatives` side of the Capitol,
we hear you, we see you, we are you, in terms of demanding change in
policing. That is why we moved forward the George Floyd Justice in Policing
Act with the fierce urgency of now.
That is why we are demanding that the United States Senate do the same. And
that should just be the beginning in terms of dealing with injustice in
America.
MELBER: Well, you saying that is why it`s such an interesting part of this,
an important, powerful part, because, having covered these issues, years
ago, members of the Democratic leadership were not embracing Black Lives
Matter to that degree.
I mean, tell me if you disagree, but I think there`s been a shift, as well
as in the public. I want to show. "The New York Times" has been charting
this, and they have got a lot of reporting, support for Black Lives Matter
really surging.
I mean, you could see it what they call underwater in polling on the far
left, and, over time, just exploding. And we heard in our reporting, and
our correspondents talked about this, they heard from people who said, OK,
some of this was a revelation, that it took protest to take facts that
existed and make them the lead story long enough where people, that support
spike includes moderates, it includes some conservatives, it includes
plenty of older white people, who may have come slower to this, according
to the data.
What is important to you about activists forcing people to look at evidence
that, in a perfect world, they would have accepted a long time ago?
JEFFRIES: Well, I think this time is different in part because America was
a captive audience.
At the beginning of the year, you had the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic.
So, America was at home. We were with our families. People were socially
distancing themselves. And then you see the killing of Ahmaud Arbery.
And then we learn about the killing of Breonna Taylor. And then we see the
manner in which the New York Police Department and other police departments
across the country were enforcing social distancing guidelines in a
discriminatory manner, where they were handing out personal protective
equipment to sunbathers who were not socially distancing themselves in
white communities, and violently arresting people in black communities.
And it was all playing itself out on videotape.
And then, of course, you see a Harvard-educated birdwatcher have his race
weaponized against him in Central Park in an encounter that could have
turned deadly.
And then it all culminates with George Floyd narrating his own death for
eight minutes and 46 seconds, with a knee violently put to his neck. And
the desperation was so significant that all he was left to do was call out
for his mama.
And America is captive as an audience seeing it all.
And so I think, for the first time certainly since the days of the civil
rights movement, were people of every race and goodwill able to process the
deep and dark nature of systemic racism, and it`s -- as it manifested
itself in police violence.
And, hopefully, that will lead to providing an opportunity for real change,
transformational change, at every level of government.
MELBER: Yes, it`s heart-wrenching to hear you relay it, because it never
gets easier to hear, and, also, as a leader that you are, with plenty of
savvy about how people`s minds and -- change and movements coalesce. Your
point about people being home together captive is very striking.
Because this is a special discussion, I wanted to delve into something else
that you have worked on, which is, you represent Brooklyn, Bed-Stuy. You
went to the House floor and gave a tribute to Christopher Wallace, the
rapper Notorious B.I.G.
And as we approach Independence Day, and the president and giving his view
of history tonight, and history being very alive and very painful in
America, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that, because that was
an artist who was popular in the `90s, and then, of course, was tragically
murdered.
At the time, he was talking about seeing body after body, and Mayor
Giuliani didn`t want to see a black man turn into John Gotti, the way he
saw the mayor and the police system being afraid of black power.
You went down to the House floor and turning the page of leadership to give
tribute to that. And yet I don`t think we should forget that, during that
period in real time, in the `90s -- I mentioned the right wing and I showed
the FOX News, and that`s all true -- but it was also a lot of prominent
Democrats that were joining, we showed earlier, not only the attacks on
certain artists, but also the tough-on-crime crackdown agenda.
So, with that in mind, living history, let`s look at some very prominent
Democrats from the `90s on crime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
B. CLINTON: Gangs and drugs have taken over our streets and undermined our
schools. There must be no doubt about whose side we`re on, not the
criminals or those who would turn away from law enforcement.
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: They are often
the kinds of kids that are called super predators, no conscience, no
empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way. But, first, we have
to bring them to heel.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: More cops, more prisons, more
physical protection for the people. You must take back the streets.
They will, or a portion of them will become the predators 15 years from
now. They are beyond the pale, many of those people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Everyone can change. You came into leadership in the Democratic
Party as leading some change.
But what is important to you for everyone to reckon with this history? We
live in a polarized time, where sometimes big problems are pushed on one
opponent or one party.
Our observation in our reporting -- and interested in your response -- is,
this is an American problem, not any single part of America.
JEFFRIES: That is correct. It`s an American problem.
And when you look at mass incarceration as an epidemic that has had its
knee on the neck of African-American communities for decades, that was
brought about by Democrats and Republicans.
That is why our view within the Congress has been it`s going to take both
parties to solve it. And we took a step in that direction in 2018, and
struck a blow against mass incarceration with passage of the FIRST STEP
Act.
But that was just a beginning in terms of meaningful criminal justice
reform. Part of the problem with the 1994 crime bill is that it included $9
billion in prison construction money to be allocated to the states, if the
states would adopt things like mandatory minimums, or truth in sentencing
laws, or reduced judicial discretion, or three strikes, you`re out.
And so the federal government incentivized bad behavior. And the prison
population at that time went from around a million or so in 1994 to
approximately 2.2 million today.
So, my view -- and I have said this directly to Vice President Biden, and
believe he is authentically and genuinely receptive to the notion -- that
we have to reverse-engineer the damage that Washington, D.C., did to
communities of color across the country.
We can`t just stop at reform at the federal level, which is a modest part
of our incarcerated population throughout the nation. We have to reach back
into the states and heal those communities that were hurt by the 1994 crime
bill and decades of a failed war on drugs.
MELBER: Right.
Congressman, you have been working on these issues a long time. They are
intricate. I know they`re near and dear to your heart, so I really
appreciate you being part of our special coverage tonight.
JEFFRIES: Ari, thanks again for having me.
MELBER: Thank you, sir.
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