CNN "Paula Zahn Now" - Transcript: Surveillance Programs

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CNN Paula Zahn Now - Transcript

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MALVEAUX: And Congress is expected to begin hearings on this matter early next year.

Paula?

ZAHN: Suzanne Malveaux, thanks so much for the update. We turn to now to Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, who serves on the Subcommittee of Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security.

Senator Durbin, do you think the president broke the law?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: The president had no legal authority to eavesdrop on or wire tap hundreds if not thousands of Americans on American soil. He says that it was under his power as commander in chief, and I will just tell you that there was a clear legal way to do this. And in many cases, the president did not follow it.

ZAHN: But the president says that, in fact, what he did was legal, that he's protecting the civil liberties of Americans and went on to say today during a news conference that the information netted from this very act has stopped terrorist plots. Is the president lying?

DURBIN: I have no way of knowing whether or not the information gathered was of value to us. Every president will tell you that there is a good reason for ignoring the law, which a president has done in this case. But we really need to step back and ask, why did this president decide at this moment in history to ignore the clear standards of the law, a standard which allows him to go to a secret court even on an expedited basis if he feels that someone has engaged in terrorist activity. This administration just ignored that.

ZAHN: But the administration said quite forcefully in a couple of different fronts today, not only out of the president's mouth but his attorney general, that they have followed the law here.

DURBIN: I don't believe that. I think the law is very clear. And under the law, a president cannot decide on his own, without going through a court process, to eavesdrop and wire tap on American citizens. In this case, the president did so. And he said as commander in chief he was authorized to do so. I don't believe that's true.

ZAHN: The president is accusing the folks who leaked this of shame shameful conduct. Why would somebody leak this information now?

DURBIN: I have no idea how this came about. I was on the Intelligence Committee for years. We were never apprised that this was even occurring when it was going on. Someone decided or some people decided to make this known. And as a consequence now, all of the American people realize that for years the president has been engaged in activity which is not legally authorized.

ZAHN: The president says even having a public discussion about this is helping the enemy.

DURBIN: You know...

ZAHN: Do you believe that? DURBIN: ... in a democracy, an open discussion of ideas is important. I really as a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee took care not to disclose classified information for fear that it could endanger lives or reduce the security of America. But there comes a point for a national debate, and we've reached it. Now that this has been published in major newspapers and discussed all around the country, I think we need to have the investigation that Senator Spector has asked for to understand why the president believes he has authority which the law clearly does not give him.

ZAHN: Senator Durbin, thank you so much for your perspective. We appreciate it.

DURBIN: Thank you.

ZAHN: Of course, there are an awful lot of issues to consider here. But they boil down to a few basic questions. Did you know that our government can spy on anyone at any time? All it takes is a warrant, and it can be issued either before or after the fact. But the president ordered wire taps without doing even that. But does it mean President Bush actually broke the law?

Senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is here to break it down for all of us. Always good to see you, Jeffrey.

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