CNN Late Edition - Transcript

CNN Late Edition - Transcript
Sunday, December 11, 2005

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BLITZER: President Bush continuing a vigorous defense of his Iraq policy this past week. But is it all becoming part of a partisan political battle here in Washington? Welcome back to "Late Edition." Joining us now from Phoenix, Arizona, the Republican Senator Jon Kyl, and from our studios in Manhattan, the Democratic senator from New York, Chuck Schumer. Senators, welcome back to "Late Edition."

Senator Schumer, let me get your quick reaction to what we heard from Ambassador Khalilzad, responding to Democratic Congressman John Murtha and Nancy Pelosi, among other Democrats, that if there's a speedy withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq, it could result in civil war. What do you make of that?

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Well, you know, I don't agree we should have a speedy withdrawal. But I do think that John Murtha, Nancy Pelosi, and others, when they bring up a point of view, are really part of what this function in America is all about what the Congress should be doing. We really need accountability from the president. I think 60, 66, or 65 percent of the American people think we're going in the wrong direction in Iraq.

And because of acts like John Murtha, whether you agreed with him or not, the president is now coming forward. He's addressed the American people twice about what his plan is. He's going to address them a couple of more times this week. And that's all to the good. In the past, they were just saying, basically, everything's going great. Things aren't going great, and we know that. One of the things that I find a real problem, Wolf, is the Iraqization plan. A year and a half ago we said we were going to begin to turn over military operations to the Iraqi army. At last report, there is only one battalion, 750 Iraqi troops, that can fight on their own. Something is wrong there.

In fact, today I'm sending a letter to the president to send a distinguished delegation of former military leaders, people like General Franks, and General Schwarzkopf, and Colin Powell, to go there and within in a month come pack and report to us why Iraqization isn't working. So I think that whether you agree or disagree, our party's a broad spectrum. You have Joe Lieberman on the one hand. You have John Murtha on the other. But oversight, accountability, asking the president what we should be doing, that's our role and our function.

BLITZER: Senator Kyl, a lot of material that Senator Schumer just raised, among other things, the poll numbers, the latest CBS/New York Times poll that came out this week -- Do you think George W. Bush has a clear plan for victory in Iraq? -- 25 percent of the American public say he has a clear plan. Sixty-eight percent say he hasn't developed one yet. That's a serious problem for this president.

SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: Actually, it is. And it is a problem to some extent of his own making, but also because of the partisanship of those who would oppose him. In the first place, the president needs to continue to talk about his plan. He's had a plan all along, as Senator Schumer pointed out. What we need to do is make sure that we can stand an Iraqi government up, or more correctly, they can.

And that's occurring. In four days, they'll have their election to determine who will be in their new government pursuant to the constitution that they developed, and then to train up enough Iraqis to provide security in the country. That process hasn't gone as quickly as we would have hoped, but as the ambassador pointed out and as our military officials there will tell you, it's proceeding in an acceptable fashion.

BLITZER: Senator Kyl, do you think it's a good idea, this proposal that Senator Schumer is raising today, to send a distinguished group of retired U.S. military generals over to Iraq to get an eyewitness account, report back on what they've seen as far as the ability of Iraqi forces to take charge?

KYL: Wolf, my guess is that all of those distinguished generals would say, look, we have great confidence in General Petraeus and General Abizaid and General Casey. They're the generals on the ground. Let them make the judgments, report to the president.

And that's exactly what we were briefed on just before we left Washington, a very candid briefing about the number of Iraqis stepping up to be trained, about the forces that are being adequately trained now to take care of themselves.

What we're doing new is basically embedding U.S. leaders in some of those Iraqi units as a way to make sure that they still have our advice but that they're doing the bulk of the fighting, or at least the holding, in some of the areas that we've taken. BLITZER: One clarification, first, Senator Schumer: General Petraeus, David Petraeus is gone now. He's been replaced by General Martin Dempsey to try to train the Iraqi forces.

But go ahead, Senator Schumer. You wanted to respond.

SCHUMER: And General Dempsey has said, at best things are mixed so far. You have to scratch your head and wonder.

A linchpin of the administration's plan, the first thing the president talked about in his first speech was Iraqization. We have been at this for a year and a half and yet there are only 750 troops that can fight on their own.

BLITZER: But, Senator Schumer, that's a very high standard. Thirty or 40 brigades, the Pentagon says, can operate with U.S. assistance.

They can take the lead; albeit, only one brigade can actually go out there on their own without any U.S. assistance whatsoever.

SCHUMER: Let me say two things here. First, even among those 30 or 40 brigades, the response is mixed, as General Dempsey has said.

Some of them are making some real progress. Others, while they can fight alongside U.S. troops, when the actual fighting occurs, the U.S. troops have to shoulder almost all of the burden.

But there is a more important point, Wolf, and that is this: If we're not going to have the Iraqis stand on their own, it is going to be a very, very long time for our soldiers to be over there, far longer than most anticipated.

BLITZER: What do you think, Senator? Let's let Senator Kyl respond. Senator Kyl? KYL: There is a lot of naysaying here that all of this didn't happen overnight. Let me go back to General Petraeus. He was the person given the responsibility of this training.

And while he was there, he brought the Iraqi forces up from almost nothing to a point in which they can do a very good job now. Now, is it good enough? No.

Are there enough of them? No. That takes time. Remember that the key problem here was that they were recruiting all of the privates, but all of the general officers had been taken away.

And there was no government, basically, with a civilian head, that was giving the orders that then would be given to the general officer on down to the enlisted people.

And so, you have to establish the government with civilian control; you have to take time to have that officer corps develop and be able to execute the plan of the civilian government and to pass that on down to the soldiers doing the fighting. That takes time. And I think it's really distressing to hear criticism from Americans who are used to having the very best military in the world, wonder why a country like Iraq that doesn't even have elected leadership yet pursuant to their constitution, why they can't snap their fingers and have a military overnight.

It is going to take time. But we can be patient about this.

BLITZER: We're going to take a quick break, Senator Schumer, but go ahead and respond.

SCHUMER: I was just going say, you know, one of the questions I think most Americans would be asking is, how much time? Now, obviously, it wouldn't be this slow but if we were to only add 750 troops a year, that would be way too slow for everybody.

How quickly can it happen? What is a realistic assessment? We have been hearing overly optimistic assessments about Iraqization for a long time.

That's why this distinguished delegation -- retired military people, people who generally been supportive of the war, the people who I have mentioned -- let them come back and give an independent assessment.

I think that would serve the president well. It would serve the American people well. Yes, John, it does take time. I couldn't agree more.

But how much time and how well is it going and what could we be doing to make it better? We have to admit that 750 troops in a year and a half is not a very good record.

BLITZER: All right, Senators, stand by because we have a lot more to talk about -- very busy week here in Washington. We'll continue our conversation with both of these senators after a short break.

Later, we'll get some insight into next week's Iraqi elections from Qubad Talabani, the Kurdish political spokesman here in Washington. He's the son of Iraq's president.

More "Late Edition" straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to "Late Edition." Still with us, the Democratic senator from New York, Chuck Schumer and the Republican senator from Arizona, John Kyl.

Senator Schumer, listen to what your Democratic colleague from Connecticut said this past week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

U.S. SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D) CONNECTICUT: It's time for Democrats who distrust President Bush to acknowledge that he will be a commander-in-chief for three more critical years and that, in matters of war, we undermine presidential credibility at our nation's peril.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: You agree with Joe Lieberman?

SCHUMER: Well, I don't fully agree with Joe Lieberman, no. But I fully respect where he's coming from. He's doing this out of integrity. He's been a hawkish voice. And our party has voices that are both hawks and doves.

But I think we're all united in one thing, Wolf. We all believe there ought to be accountability. Joe Lieberman believes there ought to be accountability. John Murtha believes there ought to be accountability.

And our job, as, not only congressional senators and congressmen, but as the opposition party, ought to be to ask questions. There is nothing wrong with asking questions if they're asked in the right way.

There is nothing wrong with saying maybe Iraqization isn't working, how are the elections going, what are the other things we should be doing? That's our job. And there is nothing wrong with that.

BLITZER: Senator Kyl, here is the language that Senator John McCain, Republican from your home state of Arizona, has introduced that would ban torture by the U.S. government: "No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment."

Do you agree with Senator McCain? KYL: First, let me respond to the point that Senator Schumer just made. I think it is quite appropriate for members of the opposition to ask questions.

But that's not the only thing that the members of the opposition are doing here. As Senator Lieberman said, their criticism of the president and of our war effort is undermining our effort.

It is having an effect, I believe, on the way that the enemy is viewing their ability to wear down our will.

Asking questions is fine. But continually naysaying with no apparent idea of their own about how to improve the training of the Iraqi military, for example, is not a constructive way to approach the debate.

Now, in answer to your question, the Senate voted overwhelmingly, I supported the amendment that my colleague, John McCain offered -- I think it was 92 votes or 93 votes, something like that, in support of that amendment.

And my understanding is that there is a conference committee agreement that is likely in the next couple of days that will make some modifications but essentially retain the essence of the amendment.

BLITZER: Are you concerned, though, that the vice president and Stephen Hadley, the president's national security adviser, among others, have been trying to chip away at what McCain's language would call for?

KYL: I think your characterization of "chipping away" is not the right way to express it, Wolf. They have expressed some very serious concerns about the ability of others to basically sue American people in world court, for example, for violating a law that is unclear in its definition. What they were trying to do was to provide some clarity, some specificity to what otherwise are pretty subjective terms. And I hope that the negotiations that they've had with Senator McCain have produced some agreement there.

BLITZER: Let's move on, Senator Schumer, and talk about the Patriot Act.

Listen to what the president said yesterday in urging the Congress to go ahead and extend it, to renew it. Listen to this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: The valuable protections of the Patriot Act will expire at the end of this month if Congress fails to act, but the terrorist threats will not expire on that schedule.

In the war on terror, we cannot afford to be without this vital law for a single moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Senator Schumer, your colleague, Russ Feingold, another Democratic senator, is threatening to filibuster this extension. He's concerned about civil liberties. Are you?

SCHUMER: Yes, I think -- look, Wolf, there has to be a balance. This is one of the major fulcrums of the Constitution, between security and liberty.

When the Patriot Act was passed five years ago, it was made to sunset so we could come back and re-examine it. And I think there's been a pretty good job done by both the House and Senate in terms of re-examining it. There were certain changes that were made.

One of the provisions that raised the hue and cry about looking at library books, now has a much higher standard before you can go in and do that.

So the compromise has made progress. But there is -- and by the way, the opposition is not just Russ Feingold. I think it's led by six senators, three Democrats, three Republicans. Two of the Republicans are very conservative. One of the Democrats, or two are very liberal. And therefore there's opposition across the board.

(CROSSTALK) BLITZER: Will you filibuster?

SCHUMER: No. Look, I think that we should be doing here is following Senator Leahy's call. Senator Leahy was the lead Democrat on the conference committee, works closely with Arlen Specter. And he said if we just renew the existing Patriot Act for three months, we could probably come to a consensus -- we're close to it now -- and get this passed. And that's what I think ought to be done.

Wolf, I just want to say one other thing in reference to what Jon said, since he jumped back. You said 68 percent of the American people think we're going in the wrong direction in Iraq. That is not because of, quote, "naysayers" or Democrats who criticize. That's because they look at it objectively -- and this is Democrats, Republicans, independents -- and they say, "We have to do things differently, or at least get a better explanation of why it's not working the way it is." That is part of the process.

And there's too much a focus in this administration on attacking the person who raises legitimate questions rather than answering those questions so we might have a better policy.

BLITZER: We're out of time, Senator Kyl, but I'll give you the last word. Go ahead.

(LAUGHTER)

KYL: Well, I am certain that we're going to approve the Patriot Act. I cannot imagine that my colleagues would actually filibuster so that we could not extend the Patriot Act.

Everybody agrees we needed to tear down that wall between the FBI and the CIA, for example, one of most successful aspects of the Patriot Act. A filibuster doesn't substitute the existing law. A filibuster ends it.

So we cannot filibuster the Patriot Act. The president is right, it needs to be extended. When we send our military folks into harm's way, we give them the training and the equipment they need to do the job. We need to the same thing with our intelligence and law enforcement community, and the Patriot Act is that capability.

BLITZER: Senator Kyl, Senator Schumer, thanks to both of you for joining us on "Late Edition."

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