CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Rep. Jamie Raskin

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

And joining me now is Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin. He serves on the Judiciary and the Oversight committees.

And, sir, thank you so much for joining us.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): I'm delighted to be with you.

KEILAR: So, this decision, this judge's ruling, the reason he's basically saying this is a moot issue is because Democrats withdrew the subpoena of Kupperman.

Do you wish that, in a way, that Democrats had not, so that there was this possibility of getting more information that could have helped your case?

RASKIN: No, I don't think so.

We had 17 sworn witnesses under oath, all of whom essentially told different parts of the exact same story, which is, the president engaged in the shakedown of President Zelensky in order to get him involved and embroiled in our presidential election by going after the Bidens and by reviving the discredited 2016 conspiracy theory that it wasn't Vladimir Putin and the Russians that had engaged in a sweeping and systematic campaign against our election; it was the Ukrainians.

And so these were two bogus things that President Trump was trying to get President Zelensky to do, and lording over him hundreds of millions of dollars in security assistance, as well as the much- sought-after White House meeting that Zelensky had wanted.

So the evidence was not just overwhelming. It was uncontradicted. It was unrefuted. So, if we had 18 witnesses, instead of 17 witnesses, maybe it would have been a tiny bit better, but the point is, is that there was overwhelming evidence for the prosecutor in this case, the House of Representatives, to say, we have seen enough.

[18:15:03]

This president has committed high crimes and misdemeanors against the American people. It's a crime in progress, and it's a danger to the republic.

KEILAR: It could certainly help Democrats case if Congress heard from John Bolton, who has the same lawyer as Kupperman.

According to some of the testimony that we saw on the House side, he said, this was a drug deal. He said, Rudy Giuliani was a hand grenade who was going to blow everybody up.

Knowing that, and with Democrats pushing to have witnesses testify in the Senate trial, does that affect anything there? RASKIN: Well, it does.

It underscores the absolute importance of having a real trial in the U.S. Senate. The way the Constitution is set up in Article 1 for impeachment purposes is, the House acts like a grand jury and a prosecutor. It brings the charges.

Two charges have been brought forward, abuse of power, and then obstruction of Congress in our impeachment investigation. Now it goes to the Senate. But the Senate must conduct a real trial.

And the problem is, is that Senator McConnell said, basically, he'd seen enough, and he's coordinating with the White House. And then Lindsey Graham, the chair of the House -- of the Senate Judiciary Committee, was saying he didn't need to see any evidence or any facts at all.

That's an absolutely disgraceful abdication of their constitutional duty. They're going to have to swear an oath, along with the 98 other senators, to say that they solemnly swear that, in the matter of the impeachment of Donald Trump, that they will render impartial justice under the Constitution and the laws.

It's not an impartial justice if you say you have already made up your mind, you don't need to see the facts and evidence. And that's true, not just for Republicans. It's true for Democrats too. Democrats should be open to the possibility that they come forward with exculpatory evidence.

Right now, we haven't seen any, but maybe the president comes forward with an alibi that we haven't seen yet.

KEILAR: There's a "New York Times" report that has new details on the aid that the president withheld from Ukraine as he tried to get them to investigate Joe Biden and Joe Biden's son, Hunter.

They're reporting that the defense secretary, the secretary of state, and then the national security adviser, John Bolton, lobbied the president intensely in the Oval Office, saying, you need to let this go forward. This is actually good for America that Ukraine gets its military aid.

He disregarded them. What does that tell you? And what does that mean for your impeachment case?

RASKIN: That tells us that this was Donald Trump's decision and Donald Trump's alone, and it's not going to work to be able to blame it on Pompeo or Rudy Giuliani or anybody else, that the president made this decision.

And those Cabinet members that you just cited who are saying...

KEILAR: But how do you prove that if you don't hear from John Bolton?

RASKIN: Well, that's why we need a real trial and we need real witnesses. And I trust that our colleagues over on the Senate side will render

faithful constitutional service by making sure there's a real trial.

But those Cabinet members that you just mentioned who were urging the president to let the money go through, as he was legally obliged to do, because that was money that was adopted by Congress, it was approved by Congress. It went through the anti-corruption screen at the Department of Defense.

All they had to do was let it go through. But they weren't letting it through. Those same members of the Cabinet who urged the president to do the right thing were the ones who President Trump told not to go testify. He blockaded the witnesses. And he didn't turn over a single subpoenaed document.

Think about that. This is the United States of America. Anybody else in America would have to participate in the trial. And the president thinks he's above the law.

KEILAR: You're back on the 7th.

And the articles of impeachment, at some point, we would expect that they would go to the Senate. I have heard a lot of Democrats say they will. They don't exactly know when. Have you been strategizing? Has the -- have Democrats been strategizing about when that's going to happen?

Do you have any idea?

RASKIN: Well, we want them to go over there as soon as possible, because we think that this is not only a series of high crimes and misdemeanors.

KEILAR: So, in like a couple of days after you leave -- after you come back?

RASKIN: Well, it is a crime in progress. It's still going on.

There's still people like Rudy Giuliani who are going over to Ukraine and are still trying to perpetrate...

KEILAR: Are you going to send them over on the 7th?

RASKIN: Well, here's the thing. We want to make sure that the Senate is going to do its job.

And that's the thing. The Senate has got to have a real trial. They're sworn under oath to render impartial justice in this case.

KEILAR: But when would you like to send them over?

RASKIN: As soon as there are procedures in place for a fair trial.

And everybody in America knows what a fair...

KEILAR: Before mid-January? RASKIN: Well, I hope it's as soon as possible. I hope it's next week.

I hope that they will be able to come up with an agreement. Look, 100 senators in the Clinton trial agreed to the procedures. It's not that difficult. Americans know what a fair trial is.

A fair trial is when all the evidence is heard, all the relevant witnesses come in and are able to testify, and we get at the truth of the matter. So it's not a big mystery what a fair trial is.

The mistake is when some of the GOP leadership say, oh, this is just a political process, it's not a real trial.

Read the Constitution. It is a real trial.

KEILAR: Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you so much.

RASKIN: Brianna, thank you so much for having me.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source