CNN "CNN Newsroom" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) on Senate Vote on Witnesses

Interview

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My next guest said just two days ago that he had a glimmer of hope in terms of getting witnesses. With me now is Senate minority whip, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois.

You said glimmer of hope two days ago. Now you know where Senator Alexander is going to go. Senator Murkowski, though, we don't know. And she asked a fascinating question yesterday when she said why should this body not call Ambassador Bolton. Do you have a sense of which way she will vote on witnesses?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I don't. And I respect Lisa very much. She's shown courage in the past when others did not and I will respect her judgment whatever it might be. But that glimmer of hope that I had a few days ago disappeared last night with Lamar Alexander's decision. I don't see the fourth vote that's necessary.

HARLOW: You just said that you will respect Senator Murkowski's decision either way. Do you respect the decision that Lamar Alexander made by essentially threading the needle saying that the House made the case, the president's behavior was inappropriate but it's not enough to impeach him -- Remove him from office?

DURBIN: Listen, in this business, you can respect a person and vehemently disagree with their conclusion of their vote. Tomorrow is always another day. And I have worked with Lamar over the years and I really have a high regard for him as a person. So even though I'm sorry about this decision, I am going to continue in the closing months of his tenure to do my best to work with him.

HARLOW: You wrote this on Twitter this morning. Quote, "Getting access to key documents and witnesses is essential to holding a full and fair trial. Anything less would be a cover-up." Do you believe that in saying that he will vote against witnesses, for example, Senator Alexander is engaging in a cover-up?

DURBIN: I am not going to get personal about this, but I will say, generally speaking, the Senate Republicans are afraid of a trial and they're afraid of the truth. To think that they would not allow one single witness to come forward, an employee on the staff of the president, to tell us what he believes happened under oath tells the whole story.

HARLOW: Well, nothing stopping John Bolton from telling the whole story. You know, at a podium, at a press conference now, and I suppose if the president is acquitted, then it's voters that will have to take that to mind and make up their own decision based on what he says.

Let's talk about what could happen today. If you get Murkowski on your side, if she's a yes on witnesses, looks like you guys will stand at 50-50, a complete tie in the Senate on whether or not to call witnesses. The chief justice could step in here, could weigh in and could break the tie.

We have heard Senator Blumenthal say late yesterday that he does not believe the -- sorry, that he does believe the chief justice should do that but your other Democratic colleague, Senator Chris Murphy, doesn't agree. He said, quote, " don't want Roberts voting. That's to me pretty clear that the Constitution specifically gives that power to the vice president to break ties. It is silent on that matter in an impeachment trial."

Who is right? Should Roberts break a tie or not?

DURBIN: Listen, to have two colleagues from the same state disagree on that issue is an indication of the fact that the law is not clear at all. The rules are not clear. The Constitution gives us a handful of sentences to handle an impeachment, and we have kind of a mixed precedent in terms of impeachment trials in the past as to whether the presiding officer, in this case, the chief justice, has the authority to vote.

I can make a case for his vote ultimately, but it's also subject to an appeal of the ruling of the chair.

HARLOW: Right.

DURBIN: And he has that authority. So ultimately, Mitch McConnell, with his loyalists, is likely to prevail.

HARLOW: Do you want Chief Justice Roberts to break a tie if there is one, or not?

DURBIN: Well, I could see that happening. And if that's his decision. If you want to ask me whether I think it's going to happen, I doubt it.

HARLOW: OK.

DURBIN: I think he'd rather stand on the sidelines for this critical and historic vote. HARLOW: Well, you make a good point. We didn't see Rehnquist breaking

ties but we did see it twice in the impeachment of Andrew Johnson.

Finally, Joe Manchin yesterday -- Senator Joe Manchin said, I'm wrestling with it every minute of every day in terms of what his decision will be to acquit the president or not. We don't know what Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona is thinking, Doug Jones, we don't know. I mean, how likely do you think it is, Senator, that multiple Democrats may vote to acquit the president?

DURBIN: I just don't know. And I -- as I said earlier, I respect them. And even this whip which normally is supposed to be -- not just the vote counter but the persuader, when it comes to an issue of this magnitude and one of this historic importance, it really is up to the conscience of each individual senator, and I hope as Joe Manchin has mentioned, that he thinks this through carefully and I believe he will.

[09:50:18]

HARLOW: Senator Durbin, it is an important day. And just three days before the Iowa caucuses as well. And we'll see if this has an impact there.

Thank you very, very much for your time.

DURBIN: Good to be with you, Poppy.

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