CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Sen. Amy Klobuchar

Interview

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While Democratic lawmakers spent their holiday preparing for a potential impeachment, President Trump spent his holiday avoiding it, celebrating Thanksgiving with a surprise visit to U.S. troops in Afghanistan and preparing to travel to London to mark the 70th anniversary of NATO, all while the president and his legal team are facing a deadline of Friday at 5:00 p.m. to decide whether they will mount a defense before the House Judiciary Committee.

Joining me now is 2020 presidential candidate Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, also a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Thank you so much for coming in. Appreciate it.

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you. Great to be on.

BASH: So, key witnesses who might have firsthand knowledge of what President Trump's involvement was, people like White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, former National Security Adviser John Bolton, they all haven't testified.

KLOBUCHAR: Mm-hmm.

BASH: But the House is moving forward anyway. Would you like to see those witnesses testify during a Senate trial?

KLOBUCHAR: You know, you always like to hear more testimony. And maybe that will happen.

But I think the point that Adam Schiff has made is, you don't want to allow the administration to play rope-a-dope with the courts and have this delayed and delayed and delayed. They have to make a decision, and they're going to move forward.

Having additional witnesses is always helpful. And that may -- the president claims he wants everyone to testify, so why doesn't he let them testify?

BASH: Right. That's -- I get that. That's true about the strategy that House Democrats have in the House. But it's a whole new world in the Senate.

Do you think that there's a way to compel those people to testify in the trial?

KLOBUCHAR: There may be.

When you look at past impeachment hearings, negotiations happen about who the witnesses are and how they're going to testify. All that's going to happen.

But the biggest obligation here, Dana, is to go forward with this. It's -- James Madison -- I always like to cite him because he was 5'4'' -- that's my height -- for a president.

And he said at the Constitutional Convention that the reason he wanted impeachment provisions in there is because a president could betray the trust of the American people to a foreign power.

That's what happened here. That's why we're going forward. That's why you saw those incredible diplomats and military personnel and people like Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, who said to his dad: It's OK. I can tell the truth in America.

They're simply coming forward and telling the truth. And I see this proceeding as part of a much bigger -- bigger theme with this president. He is someone that puts private interests, partisan interests, and his own political interests in front of the country's.

BASH: So let me ask how it could affect you, Amy Klobuchar, candidate for president.

KLOBUCHAR: OK.

BASH: I was traveling with Vice President Biden in New Hampshire recently, and pretty much all the voters I talked to who came out to see him said that they were deciding between him, Pete Buttigieg, and you.

So you are now -- because of impeachment, you are now going to likely be in Washington for the beginning of 2020, and not out with the voters, as you just said, in your campaign is the way that you really connect with people.

[09:05:02]

So, as someone who just started to gain traction, will you be at a disadvantage because of this trial?

KLOBUCHAR: I meet whatever obstacle is put in front of me. And this is more than an obstacle. It's my constitutional obligation.

But I have many people that are going to be out there for me if I can't leave for a few weeks. That includes my husband and daughter, who are excellent campaigners. But it also includes all of our endorsers.

I have more endorsers of elected and former electeds in Iowa than anyone else.

BASH: But they're not you.

KLOBUCHAR: And that includes -- I know, but I just picked up the mayor of Fertile, Dana, Fertile, population 362. She could be out there for me.

The governor of Minnesota has already been down in Iowa. He's an incredible campaigner, lieutenant governor, highest ranking American Indian elected in the country.

BASH: One last question about impeachment. Then I want to move on.

From what you have seen, is there any chance that you would vote to acquit the president? KLOBUCHAR: At this point, I don't see that.

But I'm someone that wants to look at every single count. I have made very clear I think this is impeachable conduct.

BASH: OK.

Let's turn to some issues in the 2020 race. A big debate on the campaign trail this week has been about four-year college. You do not support free four-year college, I should say.

You say you're not for -- quote -- "sending rich kids to college for free."

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez called that point of view a -- quote -- "GOP talking point," saying universal systems should benefit everyone and rich kids would go to elite private schools anyway.

How do you respond?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, first, I think she was responding to an ad that Mayor Buttigieg had put out.

BASH: But you have the same position.

KLOBUCHAR: Yes, but, in fact, I have had this position from the very beginning at the CNN town hall, in which I made very clear -- and I made my mark with this position.

But I would have done a different kind of ad that might have brought some people with me more.

And that is this. Let us look at our economic needs and match them to our education system. And that means making it easier and more affordable for kids to go to college by doubling Pell Grants. That also means making loan repayments much easier.

But what would I make free? The one- and two-year degrees. Why? Fastest growing area of jobs.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: But not giving...

(CROSSTALK)

KLOBUCHAR: We're not going to have a shortage of MBAs or CEOs.

BASH: But not giving it to everyone, is that a GOP talking point?

KLOBUCHAR: No, I don't think it is. I think it's a talking point for our economy.

And let me explain why. We're not going to have a shortage of MBAs or CEOs. We're going to have a shortage of plumbers in the next 10 years. We're going to have 74,000 openings for electricians. We're going to have over a million openings for home health care workers.

The way you approach this is by saying, let's make it easier for people to afford school. Let's try to direct people into the areas we know we're going to have jobs. And let's respect the dignity of work.

For those jobs that don't pay as well, let's make sure people have access to child care and retirement, higher minimum wage, making it easier to organize unions. That is a different message than just a negative message.

BASH: So, let me ask you about your stump speech.

You have added a new line over the last several weeks. You say -- quote -- "We can't afford to screw this up."

KLOBUCHAR: Mm-hmm.

BASH: What do you mean by that?

KLOBUCHAR: I mean by this, if Donald Trump gets elected, shame on us.

I mean that we need to bring our party together and bring with us independents and moderate Republicans, just like I have done in all my races...

BASH: So...

KLOBUCHAR: ... where I have run in suburbs, rural, and in urban areas.

BASH: So are you saying, if one of your competitors who is less moderate than you is the nominee, you're going to screw it up as a party?

KLOBUCHAR: What I'm saying is, we need to put someone at the head of the ticket that can actually bring people with us.

And I am the only one on that debate stage that has led a ticket over and over again where I have brought in suburbs, rural areas, and urban areas in a big, big way. And every time I have led a ticket, we flip the statehouse in my state. And I can do the same nationally.

I think that matters. I think that experience of winning and knowing how to build that coalition matters. And that is the argument I'm going to keep making.

BASH: But there seems to be a subtext in that -- in the phrase "We can't screw this up."

KLOBUCHAR: Sure.

I -- I also think that we have to have a platform that is big and bold, because there is not a monopoly on big ideas, but that brings people with us.

And that is why, from the beginning, I'm the only one on the stage that did not get on -- member of Congress did not get on that bill that would have kicked 149 million people off their health care in just four years.

BASH: OK. So, I'm going to get to health insurance in a second.

First, I want to ask about one of your competitors in the so-called moderate lane that you just described, Pete Buttigieg. He talked in the last debate about suggesting that anti-LGBTQ discrimination helps him understand racism.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUTTIGIEG: While I do not have the experience of ever having been discriminated against because of the color of my skin, I do have the experience of sometimes feeling like a stranger in my own country, turning on the news and seeing my own rights come up for debate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:10:00]

BASH: So I talked to the mayor afterwards. He told me that being black in America is by no means the same or equivalent or in some ways even comparable to the experience of being gay.

But Kamala Harris didn't see it that way. She said his comment was misguided, not productive, and a bit naive.

What do you think?

KLOBUCHAR: I don't think it's equivalent. But, at the same time, he has a right to make what arguments he wants to make.

I think what's key here is that, yes, I have not had that experience of going into a maternity room and saying to a doctor, my hands are swollen, and the doctor doesn't listen, and then you lose your baby.

I have not had that experience of being -- making so much less than white people do, which so many of African-Americans have that experience every single day.

But what I do know is the answer. I do know the answer is economic justice and making sure we give opportunity to more people of color, and we give them the opportunity to go into those jobs that are so high-paying, like tech jobs.

The second thing I know is, no one is going to get their rights if we shut them out from voting, which is why I have been a leader on voting rights from the very beginning. And that's why I emphasized that in the debate. It's why I did an event on that in Atlanta. And it's what I talked about when I was in South Carolina the last few days.

BASH: Let me -- I said I would get to health care. Just really briefly, your plan is -- is not on automatic Medicare for all, like you said, but allows people to buy into a public option. It's similar to Vice President Biden's plan. He says his plan would cover 97 percent of Americans, which means 10 million Americans would still be left without insurance.

Yes or no, would your plan also leave millions of Americans with no health insurance?

KLOBUCHAR: What my plan would do is cover millions more Americans than where we are right now. And we have to start somewhere.

And the other thing that I think gets lost in that argument is that it would make health care more affordable for everyone, because, when you have a nonprofit public option, it brings down premiums for everyone.

BASH: But some people -- millions of people would not have insurance still.

KLOBUCHAR: Immediately, not everyone would be covered, but they would have a much better ability to buy in and to get insurance and to get covered that they -- that they don't have now. I can't force everyone to be covered, but it would give them a much bigger option.

And in addition to that, we must take on the pharmaceutical prices, something that has gotten lost in this debate, which I don't really think is real, Dana. I don't think it's real, because you have got major leaders in our own party that have problems for Medicare for all.

But what is real is, people need more help with mental health care, long-term care insurance, taking on Alzheimer's, and taking on pharma prices. Those are the things we should be focusing on, on the debate.

BASH: Senator -- Senator Amy Klobuchar, thank you so much.

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you, Dana.

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