CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Rep. Zoe Lofgren
Interview
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This week, the House Judiciary Committee will begin considering whether to draft articles of impeachment against President Trump.
For one of the Democrats on this committee, this is the third impeachment inquiry she's going to be a part of. Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren worked for three proceedings -- on them -- against President Nixon, President Clinton, and now President Trump.
And the California congresswoman joins me now.
Wow, that's quite a history you have there. Thank you for joining us today.
So, your committee will hold its first public hearing in the impeachment inquiry on Wednesday, just hours after the...
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Right.
BASH: ... House Intelligence Committee is expected to approve its report and send it over to your committee.
We have seen a lot of public testimony in the last few weeks. What's the biggest question left in your mind ahead of the beginning of your hearings?
LOFGREN: Well, I think, you know, unlike some of the other proceedings, we got the best evidence at the very beginning.
The "do me a favor, though," phone call laid out really a this-for- that, improper scenario, where the foreign aid that had -- was the law to be released was being held for a personal political reason. And all of the testimony subsequent to that really just buttressed what appeared at the beginning.
The shocking thing to me is that the people who could have come forward and perhaps given a more benign explanation were -- were prevented from doing so by the president, which does make you infer that they really could not exonerate the president.
The question now is what to do about it.
BASH: So, there is a very real debate, as you well know, in your caucus about how narrow the articles of impeachment should be, whether they should be limited only to the Ukraine issue, or whether it should be broader to also include parts of the Mueller report.
Where do you stand?
LOFGREN: Well, I think we will get into that. We haven't started drafting articles. And I don't think we will until after the hearing this week.
BASH: But what do you think they should be? Should they be broader? LOFGREN: Well, I think the evidence that is being presented to us by
the Intelligence Committee really focuses on the Ukraine matter, so -- as well as the obstruction.
So, I'm sure that will be -- if we do articles -- and that's not a foregone conclusion -- that would be the central thrust, I would assume.
BASH: You really don't think it's a foregone conclusion?
I mean, you said that the evidence was there from the -- from the summary transcript of the July 25 phone call.
LOFGREN: Well, here's the question.
It is, in the Constitution, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors that is the cause for impeachment. And there's -- there's meaning to all of those terms. And that's what our hearing this week will be about. What does the Constitution mean when it says that?
[09:20:07]
I have got a report from the Nixon impeachment that goes into the history on that. It's on my Web site, if anyone wants to read it.
And the question is, should that misconduct result in impeachment? And we need to sort through the severity, the risk to the Constitution, the risk to our national security that the president's actions pose.
BASH: Well...
LOFGREN: It's not just misconduct.
I mean, there's plenty of misconduct in the history of the United States among presidents, but it's not all impeachable.
BASH: So you talk about the history there.
Of course, you are steeped in it. You are the only member of Congress, as I mentioned, who worked on both the Nixon and Clinton impeachments.
LOFGREN: Right.
BASH: You even wrote one of the articles of impeachment against Nixon while working for a Congress member.
LOFGREN: Yes, I did.
BASH: So, the Intelligence chairman, Adam Schiff, says, President Trump, his conduct has been far more serious and beyond anything that Nixon did.
You were there. We're seeing pictures of it.
Do you agree?
LOFGREN: Actually, I do agree.
The president -- President Nixon's misconduct related to trying to use the levers of government to hide the Watergate burglary to -- his misconduct had to do with trying to throw the election.
But at least it didn't involve involving other foreign nations. If you take a look at the -- what the founding fathers were concerned about, it was the interference by foreign governments in our political system that was one of their gravest concerns.
Nixon's behavior didn't fall into that range. So, in that way, this -- this conduct is more serious.
BASH: So, I have to circle back to the -- what we were talking about a moment ago, which is that you're saying it's more serious than what Nixon did.
And yet you're not ready to go there on flatly saying that the articles of -- at least one article of impeachment will pass.
LOFGREN: Well, I -- here's what I want to do.
I want to let the process play out. We're going to have our hearing. Then we will have debate that includes all the members of the committee, including the Republican members.
We have invited the president or his counsel to appear to provide information. And let's see this process play out.
You know, if we have got it wrong -- it doesn't look like we do, but I would welcome an opportunity to reach a different conclusion about the president's misconduct.
This is not a great time for the country to have a president revealed as doing something so counterproductive to the national interest. It would be wonderful if there were some benign explanation. I'm struggling to think what it would be at this point, but we have to at least allow for that possibility.
And -- but if the president's behavior is as it appears so far, that is a very serious matter that threatens our constitutional order...
BASH: So, let's go back to...
LOFGREN: .. as well as our national security.
BASH: Let's go back to 1998.
You railed against Republicans then after President Bill Clinton's impeachment.
LOFGREN: Right.
BASH: You suggested the Republicans were engaged in -- quote -- "American fascism," calling it a partisan lynching and a Republican overthrow of government.
So, if House Democrats do go forward and impeach the -- President Trump without any Republican support, would you call that a Democratic overthrow of government?
LOFGREN: Certainly not.
My concern with the Clinton impeachment was that there was no high crime or misdemeanor. Lying about sex does not disrupt the constitutional order. It doesn't threaten the national security.
I mean, we're not pursuing President Trump's lying about sex. I mean, his former lawyer is in prison because he lied about the president's affairs. That has nothing to do with undercutting the constitutional order.
If we were pursuing President Trump because of his cover-up of his affairs, that would be improper. And we're not going to do that.
BASH: So, let me ask you another thing about the -- the strategy going forward that you have talked about, which is that you have said that it's important to have consensus moving forward on impeachment.
So, given that, do you feel confident and comfortable going forward even if there is no Republican who comes along and votes yes along with Democrats?
LOFGREN: Well, I'm hoping that each one of us in the House, no matter what our party affiliation, will take a look at the evidence and do what's right for our country, upholding the standards of the Constitution.
[09:25:02]
I know that each member of Congress takes an oath to defend the Constitution when we take office. And I -- I have got to believe that the members of both parties that look at the evidence will make sure that that oath is adhered to.
BASH: Have you...
LOFGREN: I wouldn't assume that...
BASH: Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
LOFGREN: ... that members will -- will just ignore their obligations under the Constitution.
BASH: OK, one last question. You are a veteran member of Congress. You have relationships across
the aisle. Has any Republican even suggested to you that they're considering it?
LOFGREN: I haven't directly asked members if they are considering a vote for it.
But I have talked to members across the aisle who are very concerned and -- and disturbed by what the president has done.
BASH: OK.
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate it.
LOFGREN: Thank you.
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