NBC "Meet the Pess" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jerrold Nadler
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, Democrat Jerry Nadler of New York. Chairman Nadler, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Good morning. Good to be here.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay. This week, what does this look like? Is this the beginning of the drafting of the articles of impeachment? Is that what this week is going to be about?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Well, this week is going to start with tomorrow. Tomorrow, Monday, we're going to have the report from the Intelligence Committee, examination of their, of their people by both sides. And after that, we'll have decisions to make about drafting articles and where it goes.
CHUCK TODD:
Explain how that decision process works. Is this going to be in a committee hearing that we'll all watch? Or are you going to make these decisions behind closed doors to say, "Okay, we've decided to do abuse of power here, bribery there?" And you know, how --
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Well --
CHUCK TODD:
-- give me a little sense of what it looks like.
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
There will be a lot of consultations, I assume, between members of the committee, between -- with the House leadership, with members of the House. And we'll have to make those decisions. So we'll bring articles of impeachment, presumably, before the committee at some point later in the week.
CHUCK TODD:
Have you -- have an idea of how many articles you think we're going to draw up, or you're not ready yet? You seem to be hesitant.
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
I'm not ready to decide that. And it's not just my decision, obviously. But --
CHUCK TODD:
Is this the speaker? Is this speaker -- you may come up with recommendations, and she ultimately says, "Do this, not that"?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Well, she'll have a role, as many other members of the caucus. But the decisions have to be made based on everything we've learned until now and based on what we hear tomorrow. But remember, some of these things are very clear at this point. There is overwhelming evidence, uncontested by the Republicans, that the president put himself above the country, that the president sought foreign assistance in elections, sought to cover it up, completely defied participation in the congressional investigation, in order to hide his role, that he sought foreign assistance for the next election.
CHUCK TODD:
What is that a definition of? Is that an abuse of power allegation that you're describing to me. --
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Well, there are several things --
CHUCK TODD:
-- Is it a bribery allegation? What allegation are you describing there?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Certainly. Well, certainly, abuse of power. It might be abuse of Congress -- obstruction of Congress, in his not cooperating. You know, he refused every single document. He told everybody in the executive branch, "Do not cooperate. Do not answer. Do not testify." No president has ever done anything like that. So this is a defiance of the role of Congress, given by the Constitution, for impeachment. But again, he put himself above the country. He sought to get foreign interference against the integrity of our election. And this is a matter of urgency to deal with. Because we have to make sure that the next election is conducted with integrity and without foreign interference.
CHUCK TODD:
During your hearing with the constitutional scholars this week, you seemed to hint that you're inclined to include some of the allegations in the Mueller report in an article, or possibly more, of impeachment. I know that that is not -- as you know, that is a -- that is not unanimous inside the Democratic caucus. Where are you on this?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
I'm reserving judgement. We're going to have to decide what to do after we see -- after we have the evidence tomorrow and after consultation with others in the caucus. There are a wide variety of factors that have to be considered, including the degree of proof, the degree of confidence, and where the members of the caucus are. We certainly have an abundance of evidence on various things. And again, the Republicans have virtually not contested this. All that they have said, all that they have said, is they have opposed the process, but not the evidence.
CHUCK TODD:
And by the way if Pat Cipollone shows up tomorrow, are you going to let him in, the president's counsel?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
He has said he's not showing up.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. But if he changes his mind --
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
He was invited.
CHUCK TODD:
-- this is the President of the United States. You never know. He might, he might be tweeting it as you and I are speaking, "Hey, I'm sending my lawyer tomorrow." Are you going to let him?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
We'd have to decide that. He is guilty, at this point, of the most blatant contempt of Congress.
CHUCK TODD:
Who is guilty? The president, you mean?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
No, Cipollone.
CHUCK TODD:
Cipollone.
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
I don't mean as a crime, but just the contempt dripping from the two letters, several letters, he sent us. But that aside, he has said he's not going to come. So I think that's a very academic question. They were invited -- the president was invited to submit a testimony. He was invited to send his counsel. He has declined to do so.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to show what some members, some Democratic members, who are in the sort of Trump districts, have been saying about what they want to see and this idea of the impeachment inquiry expanding. Here is Elaine Luria. "I don't think we should be throwing the whole kitchen sink and try to overreach." Ben McAdams, "Activities from the 2016 election should be left to voters in the 2020 election." Tom Malinowski, New Jersey, "If we impeach the president for everything he has done that is impeachable, it would probably take us until 2025."
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Well, he is certainly, he is certainly -- Tom is certainly correct in that.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you -- look, do you think it's important for you to write an article of impeachment that has Democratic support? And if you don't think it has majority support, you won't write the article?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
I'm not going to say that. But I do think, obviously, we want the House to pass the resolutions that we put forward. So that's one factor to consider, obviously. But again, we also have to consider the fact that we have to call the president for his violations of the Constitution and for posing the considerable risk that he poses to the next election.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious, though, the political divide that we have. This was something that concerned you, 20 years ago. This is what you said, 20 years ago, actually, 21 years ago almost to the -- 21 years ago almost to the month. "Impeaching a president, when you have not got a broad consensus of the American people, a broad agreement of almost everybody that this fellow has got to go, because he's a clear and present danger to our liberty and to our constitution, without that, you cannot and should not impeach a president. Because to do so is to call into question the legitimacy of all of our political institutions." That has been the conundrum of this impeachment process. I understand that, hey, you guys believe you're following the rule of law. But you have a wall of partisan objection to this. Does that matter?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Well, of course it matters. But the polling now shows that 70% of the American people are convinced that the president has done something very wrong.
CHUCK TODD:
70% aren't ready to oust him.
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Well, we're not through with the process. But 70% of the American people have said that they understand the president has done something very wrong. And we also are faced with the very direct threat that this president put himself, repeatedly, above the interests of the country and poses a threat to the integrity of the next election. That's not something we were talking about 20 years ago. He poses a threat to the integrity of the next election, if he's allowed to continue to do what he's doing. So we have to stop --
CHUCK TODD:
What's the unintended consequence, though, of impeaching him and him, and him being acquitted? How he will take acquittal?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Well -- I don't know how he will take acquittal. I don't know if he'll be acquitted. The senators are going to have to decide. The House members, first, are going to have to decide, and then the senators are going to have to decide in the face of an abundance of uncontested evidence, that the president poses a threat to our election, that he put himself -- his own interests above the interests of the country. Are they going to be patriots? Or are they going to be partisans?
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this. If he's acquitted, do you believe we'll have a fair election in 2020?
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
I don't know. The president, based on his past performance, will do everything he can to make it not a fair election. And that is part of what gives us the urgency to proceed with this impeachment.
CHUCK TODD:
Chairman Nadler, I'm going to leave it there. Thank you for coming on and sharing your views. I appreciate it.
REP. JERROLD NADLER:
Thank you.
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