CNN "CNN Newsroom" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA) on Possible Impeachment of President Trump Compared to Impeachment of President Clinton

Interview

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FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Jeremy Herb, thank you so much, on Capitol Hill.

This impeachment process is not unfamiliar to our next guest. Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren is the only member of Congress to work on all three modern era impeachments, Presidents Nixon, Clinton, and now Trump. She is a 13-term representative from California and also a member of the House Judiciary Committee. And on Wednesday she questioned four legal experts who testified about the legal and historic merits of this impeachment. Welcome, Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren.

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Thank you.

WHITFIELD: So let me start with this report just released and delivered, outlining the constitutional grounds for impeachment that the House Judiciary Committee, your committee, is now involved in. Are you confident the House will have strong evidence to send articles of impeachment to the Senate?

LOFGREN: We are going to get a full report from the Intel Committee on the direct evidence about the president's misconduct, but we have a pretty good idea from the 300-page report that has been issued as well as the testimony that was given, that he did abuse his power to gain a personal advantage in the election, and that's a pretty serious matter.

WHITFIELD: It's a very serious matter. Walk us through what may happen on Monday. What should people expect?

LOFGREN: We will get, I believe, a presentation from the Intel Committee of their findings, and we'll get an opportunity to ask questions and to make sure that we've got a full picture of what they have found.

WHITFIELD: Are you using previous impeachment proceedings as kind of a guidepost for you --

LOFGREN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: -- since you've been through it before and your roles have varied in these occasions, but can you help but use your previous experience as reference points?

LOFGREN: Well, the most important experience, even though I was just a law student and not in charge of anything, but the Nixon impeachment really is something that I have been reflecting on.

WHITFIELD: That was in 73, you were a law student, we're looking at pictures now.

LOFGREN: The ravages of age.

(LAUGHTER) LOFGREN: He engaged in misconduct that had to do with rigging the election, he abused his power. The committee voted to impeach him. He resigned, of course, before the House took a vote. Here we have a president who abused his power pretty clearly to gain an advantage in the election, but it's even worse because he involved a foreign government in that.

And I've been thinking also about what he did with the appropriated funds for Ukraine. People that go, where is Ukraine? It was really to allow Ukraine to protect themselves against Russia, who had invaded them. So that's a big concern, because there's --

[14:05:09]

WHITFIELD: That's why it was congressionally approved military aid.

LOFGREN: That's right. That's right. And it was bipartisan, we don't want Russia to sweep through Ukraine. Russia is trying to reconstitute itself as a Soviet Union. They are a serious adversary of the United States. This action certainly benefited Russia.

WHITFIELD: So when you hear the arguments, or one of the arguments, because there have been many, one of the arguments that the president wanted to get to the bottom of corruption, wanted to employ or recruit or involve someone who had already been established, or at least western leaders had already said was a corrupt figure, to actually lead an investigation that would involve the Bidens, what is your reaction to one of -- that being one of the arguments as to why the president was in his right to do this?

LOFGREN: Well, it doesn't look like -- the first piece of evidence, in a way the most serious piece of evidence, was the notes of the phone call he had with the president of Ukraine, where he said -- the president is asking about the aid, and then President Trump, he doesn't talk about corruption. He talks about the Bidens. That's the investigation he wants.

So at the same time he was doing that, the Department of Defense and the Department of State had been asked by the Congress to investigate whether the aid should be released because of corruption issues. That was part of the legislation that became law. And they had both said, no, you can release this. The corruption issues have abated and the aid should be released. He never mentioned corruption. He mentioned the Bidens. I don't think any fair-minded person could look at the evidence we've got and reach a different conclusion.

And the thing that is a mystery to me is if there were exculpatory information, if there was a different explanation, why didn't the president come forward? He refused to let people testify. If they had something to say that would lead us to a different conclusion, I would have been happy as all get out, because no one wants to be in this situation of impeachment.

WHITFIELD: What's your interpretation -- sorry to interrupt, but what's your interpretation now, then, of the White House counsel saying it doesn't want to take you all up on the invitation by being a part of the process because, and according to the letter, the statement coming from White House counsel, Cipollone, that it is completely baseless, this whole inquiry, and that it has violated basic principles of due process, and that it really is a charade, and for those reason it won't participate?

LOFGREN: That's demonstrably false. The president obviously is not required to participate, but the president's lawyers' statement is demonstrably false. We have given more procedural protections to President Trump than were given to President Nixon and to President Clinton. He's declined to take advantage of some of those opportunities, but that's his choice. I think the president appears to think he can just blow off the Constitution, and I don't think so.

WHITFIELD: And then before I let you go, because as we are looking forward, we're also going down memory lane with you, because you have been involved in three of the modern era impeachments. In 1998, you were a congresswoman as opposed to be being a law student in 73. And at the time you did not believe the allegations against President Clinton rose to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.

LOFGREN: Correct.

WHITFIELD: Was there anything that changed your mind about that? Or --

LOFGREN: No, because the high crime and misdemeanor is abuse of presidential power. President Clinton engaged in an affair, which was not admirable, and he lied about that affair, which, again, was not admirable. But that was not presidential power. That wasn't abuse of presidential power. That was a tawdry affair.

WHITFIELD: So in contrast, why do you see this with more clarity?

LOFGREN: Well, if we thought lying about an affair was an impeachable offense, we'd have the two affairs that the president covered up and his lawyer is in prison as a consequence. But that's not impeachable. That's just disappointing. What's impeachable is the use of presidential power to subvert the Constitution. And that's why we're engaged in this.

WHITFIELD: OK, except there were others who argued that Clinton's abuse of power was conducted, was carried out, perhaps the circumstances very different, but that there are parallels?

[14:10:12]

LOFGREN: I just don't think there are. He lied about a personal indiscretion. He didn't use the full force of the presidency to subvert the government to his own personal needs. He lied about sex, not a good thing. President Trump has also lied about sex. Not a good thing, but not impeachable.

WHITFIELD: Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thank you so much. Appreciate you being with us.

LOFGREN: Thank you. You bet. WHITFIELD: Coming up, a heartbreaking tribute after yesterday's

deadly shooting at a Naval Airbase in Florida. Why one of the victims is being hailed as a hero.

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