NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy and Sen. Ron Johnson
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
You got it. Joining me now is the Democratic partner of Ron Johnson there when it came to trying to get aid for Ukraine, Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator Murphy, welcome back.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
Sure.
CHUCK TODD:
First of all, what have we learned so far this week that says, and this to me is the bar the Democrats have to meet, that what the president did was so egregious he should be disqualified from being able to seek a second term? Because that's the bar you guys have to meet here. Is that right?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
It's an extraordinary measure to try to impeach a president. And you can only use it under extraordinary circumstances. But these are extraordinary circumstances. What we know is that the president of the United States was using the massive powers entrusted to him to try to use taxpayer dollars as leverage to get a foreign country to interfere in an election.
You can't do that as an American president. And, if there were no consequences than the message would be clear that this president and any other president can use the power of the Oval Office in order to try to advance themselves politically or financially. And so I think Representative Schiff is right.
If you don't use impeachment for this type of offense, then I'm not sure what you use it for. And if the president was able to get away with this, if Senator Johnson got what he was asking for and no one raised any questions about it, then he would have just continued to try to use the power of his office to rig the 2020 election in his favor.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Johnson just volunteered that he's going to, apparently speaking with at least the Republican side of the House Intelligence impeachment inquiry right now, and he referenced Jordan and Nunes. How should the two of you give your information that -- I mean, I say this, there's a speech and debate clause issue. There is separation of power. This isn't -- this is legally a little complicated and I apologize for the constitutional lesson here, how should you and Senator Johnson give your information about what you knew and saw?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, I think what we knew and saw is pretty clear. And we've been public about this from the beginning. I'm not sure that anything is necessary, other than what we've said. President Zelenskiy dispensed with the formalities of the meeting. He started to immediately talk about the fact that this aid had been suspended. It was that important to him because his soldiers were dying on the front without American aid --
CHUCK TODD:
And he knew this aid was suspended at this point in time, right? When is this meeting?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
He knew this aid was suspended. This was on September 5th. And he had clearly been communicated to at that point that he needed to get these investigations started in order for the aid to be turned back on. At the end of the meeting I told him it would be a bad idea for him to accede to Rudy Guiliani's corrupt request and he agreed. But at the time, we didn't know all of these back channels, or at least I didn't know all of these back channels, that were happening regarding this extortion campaign. And so we didn't talk about the details of Sondland and Volker's communications during that meeting.
CHUCK TODD:
At what point -- basically Senator Johnson's basic argument is the following: "Leave this up to the -- this should be a political discussion and a political argument and a political debate." He's not alone in thinking that. And, that's not just a partisan defense. There are some in the middle of watching this show going, "I don't like what he did, but it's too close to the election." What do you say?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
So let me tell you why this is different. The president was trying to use the power of his office to influence the upcoming election, right? He was attempting to get a foreign power to destroy a candidate for office who was running against him in 2020.
And so this is directly relevant to the sanctity of American elections. If you don't stop a president from trying to rig an upcoming election then I don't know how we live in a democracy anymore. That's why you had to use this means right now.
CHUCK TODD:
I notice you use the word extortion. The Washington Post reported earlier this week that several Democrats have stopped using the term quid pro quo, instead describing bribery as a more direct summation of Trump's alleged conduct. You said extortion. "The shift came after the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee conducted focus groups in key house battlegrounds in recent weeks, testing messages related to impeachment. Among the questions put to participants was whether quid pro quo, extortion, or bribery was a more compelling description of Trump's conduct." It looks like Democrats are looking for the most politically effective language here. This is campaign stuff. Should you be using campaign tactics to move impeachment?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
I think we need to explain to the American people why this is so serious. And I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to --
CHUCK TODD:
You're in House battlegrounds though. I would get it if you told me it was all of America. But it's clearly about how's this playing politically --
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
You know, I don't read House campaign memos. What I know is that my job is to try to explain to the American people why this is so serious. And listen, I'll admit I think we have a challenge, right? I think a lot of Americans are paying attention to their pocketbooks, are more concerned with the president's sabotage campaign against The Affordable Care Act than they are with this impeachment inquiry. So we have a job to do, to explain why this matters.
CHUCK TODD:
Two things. Ambassador Yovanovitch, what President Trump did, should that be added to the impeachment articles? Is that an article --
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
I mean it's --
CHUCK TODD:
-- witness intimidation?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
-- I think that's an interesting question. And maybe the House should consider it because remember Ambassador Yovanovitch is still working at the State Department. And so what the president is basically telling her, during her testimony, is that there may be consequences to you and your family and your paycheck if you don't shut up.
And the message that's being sent to everybody else who's thinking about testifying is chilling as well. I've thought from the beginning that the impeachment inquiry should be narrow so that we can get it to the Senate as quickly as possible. But this is really serious.
CHUCK TODD:
Gordon Sondland. Is he a credible witness?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
I mean, his story continues to change. And I think he's got to decide this weekend whether he's an American first or a Trump loyalist. I'm not sure that we can trust his testimony given the fact that we know it's already changed.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you uncomfortable that it sounds like you've made up your mind as a juror?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
I mean, I think it's okay that with the facts on the table --
CHUCK TODD:
You think there's enough to convict.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
I think that if this isn't impeachable I'm not sure what is. Obviously, I've got to wait for the exact articles of impeachment to be sent to me, but the conduct that I have seen has to be impeachable in a democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
Chris Murphy, Democrat from Connecticut. Thank you for coming on --
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY:
Thanks --
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