CBS "Face the Nation" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jim Jordan
Interview
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We're back now with Republican Congressman Jim Jordan. Good morning to you.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN (R-Ohio/@Jim_Jordan/Intelligence Committee): Morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's good to have you here in person.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Good to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And-- and before we get going, the cut--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Oh, God.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --above your eye. You didn't get into a fistfight.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: No.
MARGARET BRENNAN: This was just a run in--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: I-- I-- I got between Adam Schiff and a camera. How about that? No, actually, it's-- it's somewhat embarrassing. But the door to the Intelligence Committee hearing room--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --in the bunker in the basement where-- where we've been doing these depositions, it opens and it stays open all the time and then it closes on its own. I stepped out to say something to my colleague, Mister Meadows.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: It started to close and I didn't realize, I turned and bumped into the door so yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So just so we-- we clear that up--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --right out of the gate.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Exactly. That's real important.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As you heard from the speaker in that interview, she argues that the aid to Ukraine was only released because of the whistleblower. What reason were you given that the aid to Ukraine--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Five--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --was eventually released?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Because President Zelensky met five times with senior U.S. officials. One, of course, was the phone call with President Trump. And then four meetings, actually face to face meetings, with U.S. Senators, ambassadors, with Vice President Pence. And in each of those meetings, never was it talked about linking the security assistance dollars to any type of investigations. But what did happen in those meetings is they all became convinced Zelensky's the real deal. Remember, we're talking about Ukraine. One of the three most corrupt countries on the planet.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: And we're talking about the hard earned tax dollars of the American people. So, they became convinced that this media star, this new guy to politics, whose party just won an overwhelming majority in their parliament, was the real deal. And he was legit and he was worth the risk--
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that September 9th complaint--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --and they said we'll release the aid.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --and then the September 11th release of the aid, you're saying that's just-- just the calendar-- just happened to happen that way?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Well, it did and plus, remember, the aid didn't have to be released till September 30th.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: So it gets released on the 11th and most importantly--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Got it.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --most importantly, the Ukrainians did nothing to, as-- as far as investigations goes, to get the aid release. So there was never this quid pro quo that the Democrats all promise existed before President Trump released the phone call.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I want to get to some new testimony.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Mm-Hm.
MARGARET BRENNAN: An American diplomat named David Holmes testified before-- behind closed doors on Friday. And I want to know, do you think, because he now has firsthand knowledge in which he explains he overheard a conversation between the President of the United States and Gordon Sondland, isn't he credible? This was first hand.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Well, I mean, look, he overheard a conversation--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Specifically, mention of the Bidens--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: We don't know if the other two people--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --and investigation into the Bidens.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --at the table are going to vouch for his story. We'll see, because there was four people at the table and--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are they coming to testify? Those other two?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: That's Adam Schiff. Adam Schiff controls the witness list. We gave our list. He doesn't give us the witnesses we want and he can call witnesses anytime he wants. We had to give our list last Saturday. Just one of the many problems and--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --and unfairness of this process. So I'm sure Mister Holmes will get called by the Democrats. He'll come in and we'll have him under oath in front of the committee, in front of the cameras and we'll ask him questions, and we'll see how his story holds up.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Gordon Sondland, the ambassador to the E.U. is an ally of the President. He was a financial donor to the President's campaign--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Mm-Hm.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --but he's changed his testimony already. Do you think he's credible?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: His-- his addendum to his testimony, never forget he said, I presume this happened. So, again, this is-- he'll be in front of us this week as well, as will Mister Morrison, as will Mister Vindman, as was Miss Williams. And we're going to have a host of witnesses. So, again, we'll see how his testimony plays out. What I also know is he said there was never any quid pro quo in the text message responding--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --to others on that text chain. So, we'll have him in front of us and we'll find out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That text chain-- you're-- you're right, but then in this conversation that David Holmes has testified about, he says he heard the President ask, so he's going to do the investigation. And Sondland replied, he's going to do it. Holmes then said he spoke to Sondland, who told him Trump was interested in the Biden investigation, that Mister Giuliani was pushing.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: It's interesting you're talking about all these details from a deposition that hasn't been released, that just happened Friday night that we're not supposed to even talk about, is it? This is, again, an example of the unfair process. He'll be under oath--
MARGARET BRENNAN: You want him to testify under oath--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: He'll be-- well--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --in the public eye?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: I-- I-- I assume Adam Schiff--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Holmes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --is going to call him. And remember this-- based on what Mister Taylor told us in the open hearing earlier this week as their first witness, he said that this happened with-- with a-- a conversation that he wasn't a part of Mister Holmes, and he's listening in on a conversation between Ambassador Sondland and the President of the United States. So we'll have questions for him. We'll see how it stands out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think Gordon Sondland was acting on his own? He says he talks to the President all the time.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: He's the Senate confirmed ambassador to the European Union. Mister Volker is-- is the special envoy, distinguished career serving our country in the diplomatic corps.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but Sondland--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: We had-- we had--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --is who I was asking about.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --Rick Perry. We have Secretary Perry, Senate confirmed, working. This whole-- this whole irregular channel I find interesting because they're all Senate confirmed individuals, respected individuals, accomplished individuals--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --working on a diplomatic mission, and somehow that's-- that's-- that's crazy. I just don't follow-- here's the-- here's the bottom line--
MARGARET BRENNAN: But-- but do you think that the project that Gordon Sondland was working on here, when he said, the Biden investigation that Mister Giuliani was pushing, was that with the president's okay?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Here's what I understand. We haven't heard from Kurt Volker yet. The first witness the Democrats call, the special envoy, Ambassador Volker, he said everything that was done here, there was no quid pro of any kind and it was all done in a way that was consistent with the mission of making sure the aid ultimately gets to the-- to Ukraine--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --and that things are done in the best interests of the United States, done in the best interests of Ukraine. And that's all-- that all happened. And Ambassador Volker's testimony I think will be particularly good and particularly powerful when we get to hear from him later this week.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Specifically, Volker said he didn't know there was a quid pro quo.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That none was ever communicated to him. Not that there was definitively no quid pro quo, just that he was not aware of it.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: No one's testified that there's been a quid pro quo. Everyone's got second, third hand, fourth hand information. Mister Morrison, who was on the call, said he didn't think anything was improper or illegal--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --on the call. Miss Williams didn't think anything improper or illegal on the call. So--
MARGARET BRENNAN: She said inappropriate.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: So, but that-- that's-- those are the facts. Four facts will never change. Will never-- that's a funny thing about facts. They don't change. The fact that the-- that we have the transcript and there was no linkage of any type of a search-- security assistance dollars for investigations--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --on the call. We have the two guys on the call--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --President Trump and President Zelensky said no pressure, no linkage--
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, just to be clear though, are you okay--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: The Ukrainians didn't know that their aid was held at the time of the call, and most importantly, they didn't do anything. Any specific actions on investigations--
MARGARET BRENNAN: I-- I understand you're saying that the aid was released--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --to get the aid released.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand you're saying the aid was released, but to-- to put a fine point on it, are you comfortable with the investigation that was requested?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: The investigation that-- that-- that was requested? Look, the President was--
MARGARET BRENNAN: That the President spoke to Gordon Sondland--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --I thought that--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --about this request to have--
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --I thought the--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --the Biden's investigated.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: I thought we were supposed to be looking--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you comfortable with that?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --into potential impact on the 2016 election and foreign countries' involvement in 2016 election. So, I'm comfortable with that. I think everyone is--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, this is the 2020 election. Does that make you uncomfortable?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Well, I don't think that's what took place here, because there was never an investigation undertaken. There was never an announcement from President Zelensky--
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the request for one that was overheard and testified to.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: But it didn't happen. There's-- there's all kinds of talk about things, but they-- it didn't happen. And well, remember when this all broke? What the Democrats tell us?
MARGARET BRENNAN: And the attempt itself doesn't bother you?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: What the Democrats tell us? There was a quid pro quo. The scary thing is the Democrats have been out to get this President.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: I was struck by listening to Speaker Pelosi's comments, her answer to your second question.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: She used the word impostor. Talking about the President of the United States, who sixty-three million people voted for, who won an Electoral College--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --landslide. And yet these Democrats have been trying to get him-- the start of this Congress, Congresswoman Tlaib said--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --she wants to impeach him before any evidence. Five members, think about this--
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --five members of the Dem-- of the Democrat-- five Democrat members on the Intelligence Committee--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: --have voted to move forward with impeachment even before the whistleblower complaint was filed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I've got to go to a commercial break. Thank you very much, Congressman.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN: Thank you.
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