NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Tom Cole

Interview

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CHUCK TODD:

Appreciate it. In our poll we asked people why they thought Congress should or should not impeach President Trump. Well, among the 49% who say, "Congress should impeach," this is the word cloud. Check it out. The most common answers were that Mr. Trump was dishonest, unfit for office, self-centered, and had abused his power. Now, among the 46% who say, "Congress should not impeach," people say, "President Trump did nothing wrong, is doing a good job, that there is no evidence of wrongdoing, and that the process itself is politically motivated." It's more proof that the country is listening to two different narratives of the same presidency. Joining me now is Congressman Tom Cole of Oklahoma. He's the top Republican on the House Rules Committee. You saw him a lot during the impeachment vote. Congressman Cole, welcome back to Meet the Press.

REP. TOM COLE:

Hey, Chuck. Good to be with you.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me start with a, a simple question here. Do you believe there was a quid pro quo?

REP. TOM COLE:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

Not at all? Because there is some question. Some people believe there was and it just doesn't rise to impeachment. You don't believe there was quid pro quo?

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, the things we know are this. We know the president says there was no quid pro quo. We know President Zelensky said he didn't feel any pressure. We know there's no Ukraine investigation. And we know the military aid got there. Those are things we know. So no, I don't think there was a quid pro quo.

CHUCK TODD:

That's an interesting way you put it. We've seen five witnesses just this week that have testified to a quid pro quo, that military aid was being held up over these investigations. And we had Rudy Giuliani somehow playing a private role here. Does any this -- does any of that stuff to you rise -- any of that a concern to you?

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, a concern's different than rising to the level of impeachment. But again, I, I look at it this way. The aid is there. And the investigations didn't happen. So if there was a quid pro quo, it certainly wasn't a very effective one.

CHUCK TODD:

So why shouldn't the president be held accountable for this?

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, you can hold any president accountable. You should probably do it through an oversight hearing to make your point. Instead, we're going willy-nilly into impeachment. We're doing it in a process that's unacceptable to most Republicans. We're doing exactly what Speaker Pelosi said we shouldn't do. That is, we're proceeding in a partisan impeachment without a consensus in the country. You know, frankly, I think the Democratic caucus just got the bit between its teeth and decided they wanted to beat this guy one way or another.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me go back to this quid pro quo because you seem to say you're taking the president at his word and these witnesses, you're not taking at their word --

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, first of all, to be fair, I haven't heard any of the witnesses.

CHUCK TODD:

So you want to wait -- okay.

REP. TOM COLE:

I don't see anything. But I look at it this way, Chuck. I've got 40-odd Republicans as my friend before me said, that have been sitting in those hearings. They don't think this rises to the level of impeachable offense. And they don't think we should've proceeded in the manner we did this year. So again, I've got the transcript, which I've read. I've got media reports, which I've paid attention to. And I've got colleagues that have been sitting in the room, none of whom think this rises to the level of impeachment. So, you know, it's pretty easy for me, given those things, to say I think this -- we're off on a track that's going to divide the country and we can't resolve in Congress.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, let me ask you this though because I want to play for you an array of responses defending the president by fellow Republicans of yours because that array seems to be sending a mixed message. Take a listen.

[BEGIN TAPE]

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:

A whistleblower complaint is hearsay here. The whistleblower was not on the phone call.

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER:

It seems like a fair bit of hearsay.

REP. JIM JORDAN:

Had no firsthand knowledge.

REP. DOUG COLLINS:

There is no quid pro quo.

STEPHANIE GRISHAM:

There was no quid pro quo.

REP. STEVE SCALISE:

No quid pro quo.

MICK MULVANEY:

We do that all the time with foreign policy.

REP. MICHAEL WALTZ:

The president has had questions about foreign aid across the board, whether it's in Central America or Afghanistan or other places. So it wasn't unique necessarily to Ukraine.

LARRY KUDLOW:

No impeachable problem.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:

Not remotely an impeachable offense.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN:

I don't see that rising to the level of an impeachable offense.

[END OF TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

I think Bill Cassidy, a Republican from Louisiana, said, "It's possible it was a lapse of judgment, but doesn't rise to impeachment." The reason I present all that to you is what's the public supposed to absorb from this? The Republican party says, "Well, no, this didn't happen. Well, all right, maybe it did, but it's not this." Do you see why that some are --

REP. TOM COLE:

No, I do.

CHUCK TODD:

-- skeptical of really what the Republican --

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, I think the best thing for the public to do is read the transcript. It's the closest thing we have to a record. And you make a judgment as to whether or not you think what happened there is worth putting the country through an incredibly divisive experience that's stopping everything else from happening. And that we know how this story's going to end. There's very little likelihood that the president will be removed. So we've made a political decision, put everything on hold, divide the country for an outcome that we know, and we're doing it -- what's going to happen. And we're doing is essentially a year before an election. I mean, to me, that doesn't make a lot of political sense and it's bad for the country.

CHUCK TODD:

It seems like, though, we're in a bad spot. We're also setting a precedent with the presidency. If there is no guardrail to stop him from, as Peggy Noonan wrote, from "Essentially bullying, you know, another leader to do his political work for him" and there is no, there is no consequence, how does that -- how do you not prevent the next president, Democrat or Republican, from doing the same thing?

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, if we want to have a longer discussion about Congress having routinely surrendered its powers, I think that's a good question. We went to war in Libya under the last president without Congress approving.

CHUCK TODD:

Can I just say my frustration how many individual members of Congress come here and admit that to me, and yet collectively, you guys have ceded your authority to the executive branch.

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, too much. But I think you're actually seeing us begin to reclaim some of it now. But I think, you know, when you do it over 40 years, you don't reclaim it in a single incident. You do it incrementally over time. And I think that's actually under way.

CHUCK TODD:

Is there -- if there were a middle ground here, not impeachment, but a censure of some sort, do you think that would be a more appropriate way to go?

REP. TOM COLE:

Look, if I were the Democrats, I would've chosen that. But again, that's up to them as to how they want to proceed. Personally, you know, I don't see anything here that I'm likely to have censured the president for. So again, fair enough. I think they've made the decision they want to go for the whole ball of wax and it's not going to work. But I do believe as Leader McCarthy said this is more about impacting the next election than it is about removing the president by impeachment.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me get you to respond to Justin Amash, the lone Republican who sort of left the party over President Trump. He tweeted this on the day of the vote. "The president will be in power for only a short time. But excusing his misbehavior will forever tarnish your name. To my Republican colleagues, step outside your media and social bubble. History will not look kindly on disingenuous, frivolous and false defenses of this man." What do you say to Justin Amash?

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, first of all, I regard him as a friend and we just profoundly disagree on this issue. I think he's wrong. Look, if I believed everything the Democrats are saying, I would still say this isn't an impeachable offense. You know, I routinely went home for six years, and I think probably most Republicans in red districts did, and got yelled at for not impeaching Barack Obama. Over, and over, and over again. But I didn't think he had done anything, even when I disagreed with him, that rose to that level. Now we're going to do this on a phone call? I mean, I just don't think this rises to the level. And I think my friends on the Democratic side are putting America through a terrifically bad experience really because they've lost control. They confused what their base thinks with what the public thinks.

CHUCK TODD:

Why is this on the Democrats and their base and not President Trump? Do you think President Trump has any responsibility for the horrible polarizing situation we're in right now?

REP. TOM COLE:

Look, I think the polarizing situation's been building up for a long time. But I think you don't make it better by doing impeachment, you make it worse. So you can hardly complain about polarization when on, what I think is very flimsy evidence, you put the country through an incredibly divisive thing. You stop everything else where we can work together, whether it's appropriations or USMCA. Those things aren't happening right now. And, you know, I think this is all political. And I think it's a situation where, sadly, the speaker lost control of her own conference.

CHUCK TODD:

You have said you have not read all the depositions.

REP. TOM COLE:

Haven't got -- been able to read them.

CHUCK TODD:

That's right. And we, when we -- we're supposedly going to see them all before then. Have you closed the door completely to approving --

REP. TOM COLE:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

-- an article of impeachment?

REP. TOM COLE:

Well, you never close the door completely to anything like this. But again, we just adopted a process that every single Republican said was unfair. We didn't do the Clinton process, the Nixon process. So, I mean, I think the way the Democrats have handled this has sort of pushed Republicans together, whether they intended to or not. Now, am I open to listening? Of course. But all I know is that everything so far that's been presented behind closed doors, every Republican that has heard it did not vote this impeachment process. So again, we'll see what they do. But, look, I think this is pretty predictable how this runs its course politically in terms of the impeachment process itself.

CHUCK TODD:

Tom Cole, Republican from Oklahoma. Always good to have your perspective.

REP. TOM COLE:

Hey, Chuck. Thank you.

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