NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Rand Paul

Interview

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CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now, from Bowling Green, Kentucky, is Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, who sits on the Foreign Relations Committee.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Good morning.

CHUCK TODD:

Senator Paul, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Thanks for having me.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me start with the Kentucky results first, before we get into the events of later this week, just your initial reactions. Matt Bevin, do you see his loss as something bigger than Matt Bevin, about the Republican Party as a whole?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Well, when you look at all the races, there were six statewide races, we won five out of six. Republicans won five out of six. We did lose the governor's race. We were disappointed in it. But the interesting thing is is we beat a lot of other candidates that no one expected us to. So actually, in many ways, there was sort of a red wave in Kentucky. I think it was mostly particularly about one race. And I think the teachers were very unhappy. He tried to fix the pension but got crossways with the teachers. And I think the teachers' anger came out. But I think he was trying to do the right thing, which is save the pension for the teachers. But it's tough. When you ask people to pay more to keep their pension in place, people get unhappy.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, it's interesting. He was the only one of the candidates --you talked about the rest of the Republican candidates that won below, below him. He decided to nationalize this race, make it about President Trump, make it about impeachment. In hindsight, was that a mistake, you think?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Well, you know, a lot of candidates do that. Because you know, we have conservative voters in Kentucky who elect federal representatives, overwhelmingly because they are socially conservative, and they do support President Trump. So I don't think it's a bad strategy, necessarily. But I think that he had some other things to overcome. One thing was the anger of the teachers. But another was some problems within the Republican base. He lost some Republican counties that other Republicans got over 60%. So there was also a problem within his base. And that's a complicated matter. But there are a lot of specific reasons and fights, within the Republican Party, that may have hurt him.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me move to the events that were going to be -- taking place this week. First, let me just simply ask, have you been reading the transcripts, as they've been released?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

You know, I've been reading the reports of them. The actual transcripts, I haven't seen it. But I guess my impression so far is, I think the American people want fairness. And I don't think they're going to judge fairness, when they're accusing President Trump of the same thing Joe Biden did, threatening the aid, if some kind of corruption's not investigated. And it seems like everybody, both parties, have been threatening aid, if some kind of investigation either doesn't happen or is ended. And so I think, really, what's going to happen is people are going to say, "Oh, they're impeaching President Trump for exactly the same thing that Joe Biden did."

He threatened the aid, if they didn't fire someone. And supposedly, the president did, if they didn't investigate someone. So it sounds exactly like what Joe Biden did. And if they weren't going to impeach Joe Biden, they look like, you know, hypocrites, in a way, for going only after President Trump and having not a word to say about what Joe Biden did.

CHUCK TODD:

So you think it's perfectly appropriate for the president of the United States to have sought this quid pro quo from Ukraine's government? Let's say - I want to set aside - I want to set aside what -- Vice President Biden. I just want to know, is it appropriate for the President of the United States to have engaged in this?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I think there's a real question whether you think the president should specifically go after one person. But there's a real question whether Joe Biden should've gone after one prosecutor. It's exactly the same scenario. So I think there is a question --

CHUCK TODD:

No, but one is president of the United States.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Well, let me finish. Let me finish. There is a question about that. But if it were me, I wouldn't give them the aid, because we don't have the money. We have to actually borrow the money from China to send it to Ukraine. So I'm against the aid. And I think it's a mistake to do the aid. So I wouldn't have played any of these games. But I think the American people think it's unfair to treat Trump under one standard and Joe Biden under a different standard.

CHUCK TODD:

But is that really -- I understand trying to go back. I go back to, do two wrongs make a right? I want to set that aside because I don't understand why that's always used as a deflection. Does that mean you think it's now okay for the president to act this way? It doesn't matter what we think of Joe Biden, at this point. If it's wrong for this to be done, then it's wrong period. No?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Well, it kind of does, it kind of does. But I'll approach it from a different way. Fairness is one angle. And I don't think people are going to think this is fair. But I think the second angle is this. Foreign aid, by law, can only go out to countries that are not corrupt. So if you think that a country is acting in a corrupt way, a president can always withhold aid, until the corruption is fixed. So you're going to have to get into the mind of Trump and his advisers and say, "Well, he didn't really believe that the Bidens were corrupt." I think he absolutely does. I think you could give him a lie detector test and say, "Do you think the Bidens were corrupt? And do you think you were investigating corruption, and that corruption is in the law, that you can't give aid to a country that has corruption?" So there's no way. This ends up being a policy debate and a partisan debate. And it has nothing to do with legality or illegality or impeachment. It's purely a partisan way of trying to overturn the election.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you believe there should be a distinction between whether the administration, people in the administration ask for a quid pro quo and whether -- if there -- and whether the president, himself, directed it? Do you think there's a distinction there? If there's no proof the president, himself, directed it, but for instance, as we've seen these transcripts indicate, about, perhaps, Mick Mulvaney was directing this, does that distinction matter to you?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

You know, I think we've gotten lost in this whole idea of quid pro quo. And I think Senator Kennedy kind of hit the nail on the head. It's that, if you're not allowed to give aid to people who are corrupt, there's always contingencies on aid. Even, even President Obama withheld aid. You know, he was supposed to give lethal aid. Congress said, "Give them $300 million in lethal aid." And he sent them blankets. So presidents, since the beginning of time, have resisted Congress. And there's been this sort of back-and-forth jockeying over what is sent. But also, presidents have withheld aid before for corruption. So the thing is is I think it's a mistake to say, "Oh, he withheld aid, until he got what he wanted." Well, if it's corruption, and he believes there to be corruption, he has every right to withhold aid. So I think it's a big mistake for anybody to argue quid pro quo. He didn't have quid pro quo. And I know that's what the administration's arguing. I wouldn't make that argument. I would make the argument that every politician in Washington, other than me, virtually, is trying to manipulate Ukraine to their purposes. Menendez tried it. Murphy tried it. Biden tried it. Trump's tried it. They're all doing it. They are all trying to manipulate Ukraine to get some kind of investigation, either to end an investigation or start an investigation.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask the question this way, though. If you're the average American citizen watching this, should you be concerned that the president of the United States wanted a foreign government to help investigate a political rival? Do you understand why some people think that that's an un -- that that is , basically, abusing the office for political gain, to mess with the election?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I think you're right, Chuck. But I think an equal number of people are upset that Hillary Clinton hired a British spy to hire Russians to get dirt called the Steele Dossier. So here's Hillary Clinton, in the middle of a campaign, hiring a foreign spy agency or a foreign spy --

CHUCK TODD:

Alright, you did it again to me. You did it again. You went back and said, "Okay, there's behavior that's bad over here. There's behavior that's bad over there." All that does is condition us for more bad behavior. When do we put a stop to this?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

No, but what it says is -- no, what I'm asking for is that they be treated equally. And I think the American public's going to say, "If you didn't do anything to Hillary Clinton for hiring a foreign spy, why is it, all of a sudden, wrong for President Trump --

CHUCK TODD:

So two wrongs make a right?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

--to have a country investigate somebody-- well, what I would say is that people want them to be treated fairly. I'm not saying, two wrongs make a right. I'm not even saying I would've done it that way. All I'm saying is, is that you're going to impeach President Trump, and you're going to give Hillary Clinton, you know, let her skate? So then I think people see that as unfair. And so it becomes partisan. That's why no Republicans voted for impeachment.

CHUCK TODD:

Is there anything that you could hear that might make you -- Are you an open minded juror? Let me ask it that way.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I'm very open minded and fair minded. You'll not meet a person who is more fair than I am. I really do believe that justice should be colorblind, gender blind, you name it. I think justice should. But you know, one of our traditions about justice, about finding justice, is a defense should be able to present their witnesses. So if you can't call Hunter Biden, and you can't call the whistleblower, that's not -- that's sort of a sham. That's not even really a trial. So I am fair minded. But the trial has to be fair.

CHUCK TODD:

Senator Rand Paul, Republican from Kentucky, thank you for coming on and sharing your views, sir. I much appreciate it.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Thank you.

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