MSNBC "The Beat with Ari Melber" - Transcript: "Rep. Ocasio-Cortez on impeachment invest."
Interview
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O`DONNELL: We`re going to get into it with Joyce Vance later in the hour. Thank you, Rachel. We really appreciate it. Well, we`ll have coverage of all the breaking news of the hour, especially coverage of impeachment at this hour, including a corroborating witness for Ambassador William Taylor who is scheduled to testify next week in that investigation. The impeachment investigation of Donald Trump was suspended today in honor of Elijah Cummings who, only 30 days ago -- just 30 days ago when he was named as one of the leaders of the impeachment investigation, his role then as chairman of the Oversight Committee. Congressman Cummings died last week from medical complications. And today, he became the first African-American member of Congress, first African-American elected official in history brought to lie in state in the capital. Eugene Robinson will join us at the end of the hour to share his memories of and perspective on the life and times of the honorable Elijah Cummings. Our first guest tonight is the youngest member of Elijah Cummings` committee, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who will share what it was like to take her place in the House of Representatives this year, and win a valuable seat on the House Oversight Committee, with Chairman Cummings as her guide, welcoming her to that committee. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has changed the definition of the possible for freshmen members of the House of Representatives. She has captured more public attention than any freshmen member of the House of Representatives in history. And in politics, attention is power. Without the attention Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has brought to the Green New Deal, it would not be one of the leading agenda items of the Democratic Party and one of most prominent issues debated in the presidential campaign and without the professionalism that she has brought to her legislative agenda in the House, she would not have a Senate partner on the Green New Deal, which is absolutely mandatory for any realistic legislative enterprise. But like an old pro at legislating, the freshman congresswoman found a partner in Senator Ed Markey of Massachusetts, who has pushed the Green New Deal on the Democratic agenda in the United States Senate. There`s no reason to expect leadership like that from a freshman member in the House because we have never seen leadership from a freshman member of the House. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is one of the freshman members of the House who have changed what is possible in committee hearings by the sharpness and inescapable logic of their questions in the five minutes that they are allowed to ask them. Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez did that yesterday in what became five of the worst minutes of Mark Zuckerberg`s very rich life as the CEO of Facebook, who has gotten through most of the years of his life without ever having to answer difficult questions. We`ll show you some of that video of what Mark Zuckerberg ran into yesterday when Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez got her five minutes. But we begin with impeachment. And as luck of history would have it, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is one of the members of Congress who is participating in the impeachment investigation as a member of the House Oversight Committee. Contrary to Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz`s lies as he was leading his congressional drunk driving collision with the investigating committees yesterday, there are, in fact, dozens of Republican members of the House who are also allowed to participate in and ask questions in the investigation, including in the closed door depositions, because they are members of the investigating committees. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham is introducing a resolution in the Senate to object to the procedures being used by the House of Representatives. We will consider Lindsey Graham`s objections later in this hour when we will be joined by former federal prosecutor Joyce Vance and former Under Secretary of State Wendy Sherman. Most Republicans are supporting Lindsey Graham`s resolution objecting to the House procedures, but in what could be an ominous sign for Donald Trump, as of tonight, eight, eight Republican senators have chosen not to support Lindsey Graham`s resolution, including Senator Mitt Romney, Senator Susan Collins, Senator Lisa Murkowski. If just half of those eight senators were to join with Democrats in the Senate and vote against Donald Trump in his impeachment trial, then a majority of the Senate would be voting against the president, which would be an important note for history, even though the president could remain in power because it takes 67 votes to convict and remove a president in an impeachment trial in the Senate. And joining us now is Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who represents the state of New York`s 14th congressional district, which covers portions of the Bronx and Queens in New York City. Congresswoman, thank you very for joining us tonight on this very important news night. And I want to get your reaction to what is happening in the impeachment investigation, beginning quickly with that very strange car crash of a scene we saw of Matt Gaetz leading a physical attack into the committee to disrupt it.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Yes, Lawrence. Well, first and foremost, I remember seeing, you know, that sea of men banging outside of House Intelligence, thinking that it was quite funny, because many of them are my colleagues on the House Oversight Committee and have access to those depositions. So, they were pretending that they weren`t able to be in these depositions, like many members of Congress, Republican and Democrat alike, in order to create a spectacle. But the truth of the matter is, is not that -- the reason they were doing that, because they knew exactly what was going on inside. They know exactly what this testimony and what these depositions are adding up to and that, frankly, it is revealing a very disturbing sequence of events and very likely abuse of power and breaking of our oath to the Constitution of the United States.
O`DONNELL: Now, I know you were in Ambassador Gordon Sondland`s closed door deposition there. We had Congressman Peter Welch with us the other night. And after William Taylor testified in direct contradiction of Ambassador Sondland, let`s listen to what Congressman Welch said about the possibilities of perjury charges there. Let`s listen to that.
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O`DONNELL: Is Gordon Sondland in danger of perjury charges of his testimony to your committee?
REP. PETER WELCH (D-VT): I think he is. The evidence is coming out now that he, in fact, was a very active instrument to try to essentially assist Giuliani in the effort to have this rogue foreign policy. So, yes, I think Ambassador Sondland has some reason to be worried about how his testimony is going to be evaluated when reviewed by potential prosecutors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And today, Ambassador Sondland`s criminal defense lawyers relied on the "do not recall" defense to cover the conflict in his testimony with Ambassador Taylor`s testimony. What is your sense of how much possible perjury charge danger Ambassador Sondland is in?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I think a lot of what we`re seeing here does reveal a decent amount of testimony that, frankly, just isn`t lining up. This is exactly why, in the House of Representatives, we separate all of our witnesses and depose them individually and in private, so that we can get these stories down and see what adds up and what doesn`t. That is also a major reason why these Republicans are fighting to perhaps make all of this public. You know, it is known that this is done with the blessing of the president. And perhaps one of the reason they`re fighting for all of this testimony to be public is so that folks could potentially line up their depositions. We don`t know. But with respect to Ambassador Sondland -- well, you know, the fact that they`re relying on this do not recall, let`s see what comes out, I do not think bodes very well for him. But once again, we still have more depositions left to go and we have to really get all of the facts.
O`DONNELL: It has been a very sad week for you and the members of the House, and the committee in particular, with the loss of Chairman Cummings. What`s it like for you to be, first of all, win a seat on his committee and then be welcomed on to that committee by Elijah Cummings?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: It was the complete honor of a lifetime. When I first asked to be assigned to the House Oversight Committee, he brought me into his office personally and really wanted to know not just why I wanted to be on this committee, but he wanted to know who I was. And it was a real testimony to who Elijah Cummings was as a leader. He cared about serving the most vulnerable Americans, about bringing truth to light, about speaking truth to power. And unlike the -- and contrary to the culture of Congress, which is so focused on the power of seniority, he, as Speaker Pelosi mentioned today earlier this year said, I want all the freshmen on my committee. He was a relentless coach. He was an inspired mentor, and he believed and invested time in each and every one of us. And I feel profoundly blessed to have spent the last ten months with our chairman.
O`DONNELL: The -- it seems at this point certain that the House of Representatives is going to deliver articles of impeachment, at least one, to the United States Senate for trial, which leaves the senators in the posture of jurors. Some of them are actually refraining from comment on the basis of being jurors. We`ve seen this before, when the Clinton Senate jury was assembled. Some of them -- it`s unlike a court jury where you`re not allowed to make any comment. They can. They can decide ahead of time how they`re going to vote. Some of them announce that, some of them don`t. What is your sense of how the presidential candidates who are going to be jurors -- there`s about five of them now -- from Senator Sanders, the candidate you endorsed, through Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar, how they should handle themselves now as the prospect of being potential jurors in the Senate trial becomes more and more serious?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, first and foremost, I think what`s important to acknowledge is that the president has committed crimes in public, and that -- this is something that we know. This is something that all people know from the -- from, you know, from the green of the White House, he solicited election interference and discussed election interference with respect to China. He released public notes of his calls where he solicited and engaged in using the power of his office to create a politically motivated investigation against a political opponent. So, this is all out in the public. We know that he has committed a crime. The question is, how many other people are implicated in this? The question is, how often did he do it? Did he do it in other circumstances? How big does this get? And so, with respect to the number of articles, I think that it`s fair to say, let`s look at what rolls in. But with respect to Ukraine and several other instances it`s a very open and shut case. So, I think it`s important that we discuss the fact that he has committed impeachable crimes. It`s just a question of how many and how many people were involved and who knew.
O`DONNELL: In addition to your work in the committees and investigative committees, you`re also become very active now in the political campaign, actively campaigning for Bernie Sanders, endorsing Ed Markey for Senate in Massachusetts, endorsing a new candidate, Attorney Cisneros in Texas, running for the House in Texas. You`re spreading your endorsements around the electoral map. How much of that is something that is distracting from your daily work in the House?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I put my work in the House front and center. But what I do believe is that these endorsements are part of the work that we have to do in the House. Very frequently, someone will say, oh, we can`t pass a Green New Deal. We don`t have support for that. Oh, Medicare-for-All is, quote/unquote, unfeasible, because we may not have support in certain areas of the House. Well, if we want to change that, then we need to be changing -- we need to be changing the map of the House. And we need to be protecting those folks who are leading and are taking political risks in order to serve the people of the United States of America. And so, my work, first and foremost, informs the other work that I do to organize the electorate. But it`s -- it is important to acknowledge that in order to pass a transformative agenda for working class Americans, we`ve got to have the numbers and we`ve got to have the leadership in place. And so, we have to play in both if we`re really going to change this country and if we`re serious about that.
O`DONNELL: I want to take a look at what your five minutes with Mark Zuckerberg was like yesterday. We do have squeeze in a commercial break here. We can do it on the other side if you can stay with us.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Sure, of course.
O`DONNELL: Thank you. We`ll be right back with Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez.
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O`DONNELL: Some of the freshman Democrats in the House of Representatives have decided to concentrate on an aspect of their jobs that many members of Congress frequently ignore -- asking sharp questions in hearings. Here is freshman Congresswoman Katie Porter questioning Mark Zuckerberg yesterday about how he runs Facebook.
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REP. KATIE PORTER (D-CA): You`ve got about 15,000 contractors watching murders, stabbings, suicides, other gruesome, disgusting videos for content moderation. Correct?
MARK ZUCKERBERG, FACEBOOK CEO: Congresswoman, yes, I believe that that`s correct.
PORTER: You pay many of those workers under $30,000 a year and you`ve cut them off from mental health care when they leave the company, even if they have PTSD because of their work for your company?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Then came freshman Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez pressing Mark Zuckerberg on why he refuses to fact-check political advertising on Facebook.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: You`ve announced recently that the official policy of Facebook now allows politicians to pay to spread disinformation in 2020 elections and in the future. So I just want to know how far I can push this in the next year. Under your policy, you know, using census data as well, could I pay to target predominantly black zip codes and advertise them the incorrect election date?
ZUCKERBERG: No, Congresswoman, you couldn`t. We have -- even for these policies around the newsworthiness of content that politicians say and the general principle that I believe that --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: But you said you`re not going to fact check my ads.
ZUCKERBERG: We have -- if anyone, including a politician, is saying things that can cause -- that is calling for violence or could risk imminent physical harm or voter or census suppression, and we roll out census suppression policy, we will take the content down.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: So, you will -- there is some threshold where you will fact check political advertisements? Is that what you`re telling me?
ZUCKERBERG: Well, Congresswoman, yes, and for specific things like that, where there`s imminent risk of harm.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Could I run ads targeting Republicans in primaries saying that they voted for the Green New Deal?
ZUCKERBERG: Sorry, could you repeat that?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Would I be able to run advertisements on Facebook targeting Republicans in primaries saying that they voted for the Green New Deal? I mean, if you`re not fact-checking political advertisements, I`m just trying to understand the bounds here, what`s fair game.
ZUCKERBERG: Congresswoman, I don`t know the answer to that off the top of my head. I think --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: So you don`t know if I`ll be able to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is back with us. And, Congresswoman, what I was fascinated by was, I think the simplest question you asked him was the one he needed you to repeat, and one of the things I`m wondering is, does he even understand that all Republicans oppose the Green New Deal and, therefore, your ad would be a lie? It`s not clear to me that he actually understood that underlying element of your question.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes, yes. You know, and the key is that if he didn`t understand that, he should have asked and clarified. But instead, he just immediately went for the probably, yes. And when you pair that with the fact that Facebook has officially made its policy that it will not fact-check paid political advertisement, that they will take money in order to publish and spread disinformation is extraordinarily concerning. And, by the way, this is also why I asked, in addition, to this line of questioning about what mark Zuckerberg knew about Cambridge Analytica, when and what did he about it? This is extremely concerning, because we`re not just talking about rehashing the 2016 election and the disinformation campaign. We`re talking about whether Facebook is going to play a role in affirmatively allowing the disinformation campaigns into the 2020 U.S. election. And if that is the case, we need to take action. I believe we need to take preemptive action and we need to take action right now.
O`DONNELL: And when you were closing in on him on Cambridge Analytica, there were reporters who cover Mark Zuckerberg very closely, have been for years, who were kind of tweeting on their edge of their seats that they`ve never been able to get these questions in front of him. But he did kind of just slither away from those questions.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes. And as a matter of fact, what we decided to do after he answered in very frankly strange and bizarre ways to those questions is that we are actually going to send follow-up questions, pen them to the record of the hearing and send them to Facebook for an official answer to these questions. We need to get it on the record. We need to know whether Mark Zuckerberg knew. We need to know who in Facebook`s leadership knew about Cambridge Analytica, and we need to know whether they decided to do nothing while the 2016 were being manipulated and if they`re deciding to do nothing again. Because if that`s the case, they are not the innocent bystanders that they like to say that they are. They may be active participants. We don`t know. And so, for that, we have to get to the bottom of this. We need to understand what role they are deciding to play, especially given the light of the fact that they are going to take money to public disinformation ads from political campaigns. Broadcasters are held to a much higher standard. While they cannot discriminate on what kind of advertisements they run, there is a base level of fact checking that must go on. And so for this, in order for him to go far below that standard raises very serious questions about the integrity of the information that people are receiving.
O`DONNELL: I mean, there is a simple solution for Facebook, and that is simply to take no paid political advertising. Does Facebook make enough money to survive if they don`t have that income?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: That`s a -- you know, that`s an excellent question. Full disclosure, I am a candidate that runs Facebook ads. But even given that, that was a very common question. You know, some folks have noted that the night before my hearing, I took to Twitter, ironically enough. And I asked the public, what would you want to know from Mark Zuckerberg? And one of the most common questions that I got from people here in the United States and around the world is why don`t you just ban political ads if you`re not even going to put in the resources to fact-check them? And I think it`s a very legitimate question. If Facebook doesn`t want to put in the very basic investments of fact-checking on a very essential level, then why should they take the money to run these ads at all? They didn`t always run them. And I think it`s a natural question of should you run them if you`re not going to fact-check them?
O`DONNELL: Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, thank you very much for starting us off tonight. Really appreciate it.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Of course. Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
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