CNN "State Of The Union With Jake Tapper" - Transcript "Interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders"

Interview

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And we do have some breaking news, President Trump announcing a new trade deal with Japan, saying -- quote -- "The deal is done in principle" and calling it tremendous for farmers and infrastructure, this as the president and his top economic advisers are defending his escalating trade war with China.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Joining me now is presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders.

Senator, thank you so much for joining us.

SANDERS: My pleasure.

KEILAR: I want to start on the G7, where one of the major topics is the U.S. trade war with China.

President Trump escalated his tariffs on Friday, after China promised new retaliatory tariffs. You've made clear that China is treating the U.S. unfairly when it comes to trade.

And I understand that you don't agree with the president's tactics or his style, but if you were president, would you use tariffs to negotiate a deal with China?

SANDERS: That is one tool that you have.

What the president is doing is totally irrational, and it is destabilizing the entire world economy. You do not make trade policy by announcing today that you're going to raise tariffs by X-percent, and the next day by Y-percent, by attacking the person you appointed as head of the Federal Reserve as an enemy of the American people, by denouncing the president of China, who last year you really loved as a great leader.

This kind of instability and irrationality on the part of the president is causing very serious harm to the entire world economy.

Yes, we need a new trade policy.

KEILAR: I understand your criticism of that, but you say this would be a tool. Is it a tool that you would use? Would you use tariffs?

SANDERS: Yes, of course. It is used in a rational way within the context of a broad, sensible trade policy. It is one tool that's available.

What we need a -- you're looking at somebody, by the way, who helped lead the effort against permanent normal trade relations with China and NAFTA, because trade policies that we've had in the past have lost us millions of good-paying jobs, and were written primarily by large corporate -- large corporations, at the expense of workers and farmers.

We need a rational trade policy today, not what Trump is doing by tweet.

KEILAR: I want to talk about Medicare for all now.

You revealed an addition to your plan this week, saying that if companies save money by switching from union health care -- from a union-negotiated health care plan to Medicare for all, those savings would have to be passed along to those workers who belonged to that union.

SANDERS: Right.

KEILAR: How would you explain to those workers why they should not also receive a benefit for giving up their private insurance, if, for instance, theirs saves money as well going to Medicare for all?

SANDERS: Well, they are going to receive an enormous benefit. The overwhelming majority of the American people are going to pay significantly less for better health care under Medicare for all.

Right now, you've got 87 million people who are uninsured, who are underinsured; 500,000 people go bankrupt every year because they cannot pay their outrageous medical bills. You've got 30,000 people who are dying. People are spending 10, 15, 20 percent of their limited incomes on health care.

But Medicare for all...

KEILAR: But they won't get the higher wages or the benefits that union members would get.

SANDERS: No, no, no, no. Wait.

KEILAR: No, I hear what you are saying, but you say union members...

SANDERS: What Medicare for all would -- excuse me.

What Medicare for all will do is lower the cost of health care for the overwhelming majority of Americans. That's how they benefit, no premiums, no co-payments, no deductibles, no out-of-pocket expenses, every American, virtually every American.

KEILAR: But a non-union worker, unlike a union worker, under your plan, if there is a savings, their employer sees a savings, they would not be guaranteed to have higher wages or benefits to realize the savings.

[09:25:04]

SANDERS: Well, the difference -- that's right.

KEILAR: Why not?

SANDERS: But the difference is -- I will tell you why not, because union workers gave up wage benefits over the years in order to pay for health care, and non-union workers did not. That's the difference.

But,at the end of the day, the vast majority of the American people, workers and non-union -- workers -- union workers and non-union workers, will benefit under a Medicare for all.

And, by the way, under Medicare for all, we'll cap what any American pays for prescription drugs at $200 a year. We're going to take on the pharmaceutical industry. The function of health care, Brianna, is not to allow the health care industry, as they did last year, to make $100 billion in profit, while so many of our people are uninsured, underinsured, and paying more than they can afford to pay.

KEILAR: Several of your 2020 rivals and their campaigns have been attacking you over this sweetener for union members. So how do you respond to critics who say that this is special treatment to a voting bloc?

SANDERS: Very few people -- very few people have been attacking me, I think one candidate, and the media picks up on it.

Again, we have not changed...

KEILAR: There's three.

SANDERS: ... one word of our -- we have not changed one word of our Medicare for all system, no deductible, no co-payments. The vast majority of the American people save money.

The issue, again, as I've just said, is that, if you are a worker in a union shop, and the company says, well, we're going to offer you a 3 percent wage increase, but you know what, it's -- you're going to have to pay -- you're going to lose 4 percent in your health care, your deductible is going up, your premium is going up, those workers have given up wage increases in order to retain the health care that they have.

Those are the workers we are reaching out to in this -- what we are doing right now.

But we have not changed one word in our Medicare for all program, which is gaining more and more support from the American people. The American people understand that we have a dysfunctional system in which so many people are uninsured, underinsured, and which we spend twice as much per person on health care as do the people of Canada or any other industrialized nation.

Now, it is true we're going to take on hundreds of millions of dollars from the health care industry in 30 second TV ads. They're going to distort what I'm trying to do. They're going to demonize me personally. But, at the end of the day, the American people will go forward in

guaranteeing health care to all people as a human right, just as every other major country does.

KEILAR: You -- I want to talk about how you describe yourself, which is as a democratic socialist.

You have said that -- quote -- "Unfettered capitalism is destroying the moral and economic fabric of this country." It's one of the things that draws a lot of your supporters to you.

But your 2020 opponent Elizabeth Warren, who agrees with you on most issues, says she is a capitalist down to her toes, she's not a democratic socialist, like you describe yourself. How do you explain that to voters who are wondering what's the difference here?

SANDERS: OK. Well, I will let Senator Warren speak for herself.

But I will tell you what I believe. And I believe, right now, if we are going to transform our economy, so that it works for working people, and not just large profitable corporations and the 1 percent, if we're going to end the absurdity of major corporations like Amazon that make $10 billion in profit last year, not paying one penny in federal income tax, if we're going to end the outrage that three people today in America own more wealth than the bottom half of the American people...

KEILAR: But is it possible...

SANDERS: ... 29 percent of all new -- if you're going to end that, the only way you do it is, when millions of people stand up and take on the corporate elite.

To me, one of the aspects of democratic socialism...

KEILAR: I know -- I know what your -- what know what your...

SANDERS: ... is organizing people -- excuse me -- and getting people involved in the political process, so that we take on those people today who have so much economic and political power.

KEILAR: I know what your pitch is on that.

Is it possible for two candidates who see eye to eye, but one is a capitalist and one is not?

SANDERS: Well, I'm not quite sure what that question is about.

All I know is, Senator Warren is running her campaign. I'm running my campaign. I feel very good -- I feel very...

KEILAR: I mean, the labels are -- the labels are very far apart, and yet some of your policies are much closer together than those labels would indicate. How do you make sense of that?

SANDERS: Well, we'll let - we'll let the American people make those decision.

All I am saying is that, if you look around the world, you look at Germany, you look at Scandinavia, they have public colleges and universities tuition-free. They have retirement benefits for their senior citizens much stronger than we have in the United States. They are addressing problems of income and wealth inequality.

So, to me, what democratic socialism is about is in fact creating an economy and a government that works all, not for wealthy campaign contributors.

KEILAR: All right, Senator Sanders, thank you so much for coming on STATE OF THE UNION.

SANDERS: Well, thank you for having me.

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