MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: "Rudy Giuliani and the Turkish"
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HAYES: Cleaned out. They had to have it cleaned out. OK, so that is -- that is the one story. It`s one story and that is a story that`s dominating a lot of the politics and coverage. Everyone is watching that and thinking why did this happen, right? 354 people in the House condemned Trump`s decision. That includes 129 Republicans. They never do this. Most or much of the Senate has criticized it. Nobody likes it. Huge bipartisan consensus, it`s terrible across the ideological spectrum, not just the partisan spectrum, from Noam Chomsky to Bill Kristol, why did he do this? Why did Trump do this? That is one story. And then over here, there is another story, that the presidents trusted associate, bagman, buddy, adviser, attorney, personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani has maybe been working off the books on behalf of the Turkish government. So I`m going to explain that in a second, but actually based on your reaction, maybe story one and story two are not two stories. They are connected to each other. Because story two is about the same guy, let`s remember, who we know was running the off-the-books Ukraine policy, right? The same guy who has his fingers in American foreign policy despite the fact that he has no standing to do so. The guy at the center of the Ukraine impeachment scandal it turns out was also working another angle. And that angle was to personally lobby for literally the top two priorities of Turkey`s President Erdogan in the United States. Erdogan has two specific things he desperately badly wants out of the U.S., OK. He`s got a very connected gold trader who is part of a vast money-laundering scheme to bypass U.S. sanctions against Iran, a Turkish man connected to Erdogan. That guy is being prosecuted by the Southern District of New York. And the President of Turkey does not like that and wants him let go. So you got your gold trader and then you`ve got your cleric. The cleric`s name is Fethullah Gulen. He is the leader of religious movement that is very, very popular in Turkey, a very outspoken Erdogan critic. And Erdogan absolutely hates this guy because he is convinced that he fomented a coup against him. Now, Gulen happens to live in the United States in the Poconos of all places, in the mountains in Pennsylvania, and he lives as a legal permanent resident which is random. Erdogan wants him extradited back. OK? So those are the two things that Erdogan wants from the U.S. government, the two things he arguably cares most about in terms of specific internal U.S. matters. Those are also the two things that Giuliani we now know was personally repeatedly lobbying the president about. Giuliani was that gold trader`s lawyer, OK. He represented him. And back in 2017, Giuliani traveled to Turkey and held a secret meeting with Erdogan to basically figure out -- a way out for Turkey to further aid U.S. interests in the region in exchange for releasing the gold trader which is weird because plea bargaining is usually a thing that happens between defense lawyers and prosecutors in the United States, not with a foreign head of state in a foreign country. So that`s one of the issues that Erdogan wants in the U.S. That`s Giuliani was working on. Here`s the other. We learned just this week, OK, that Giuliani privately urged the president, President Trump to extradite that Turkish cleric multiple times, so much so that one former official described it as Giuliani`s hobbyhorse. It was the thing he just keeps bringing up in White House meetings. And it got so bad, and it got so frequent White House officials even went and they checked lobbying records to make sure Giuliani was not registered to lobby as is legally required on behalf of Turkey, and he was not. Now, if this is all starting to sound familiar as if maybe you`ve heard something like this before, it gets because you have. You remember, Donald Trump`s first National Security Advisor, remember that guy, Michael Flynn, lock her up Michael Flynn? OK, Michael Flynn wrote the most insane op-ed on Election Day about -- you`ll never guess, on Election Day 2016 the same Turkish cleric. This is Election Day. The day people go to the polls. He didn`t write an op-ed that says hey, go vote for Trump. He didn`t say we`re going to make America great. No, he writes it up at an Election Day 2016 being like we have got to get this cleric out of the Poconos and back to Turkey. This is the title of the Election Day op-ed. Our ally Turkey is in crisis and needs our support. What do we later find out? Well, we later find out Michael Flynn was paid half a million dollars to lobby for the Turkish government. He is currently awaiting sentencing in December. He could be going to prison for lying about this. Which brings us back to that crazy letter, that very, very, very crazy letter, the one that Donald Trump sent Erdogan last week. For all of its weirdness and childish tone, there was one line in that letter that stands out more than ever. Here it is. "I have worked hard to solve some of your problems." What problem has Donald Trump`s worked hard to solve for Turkey? The line has a certain ring to it knowing what we know now about who Donald Trump tasked with his foreign policy, not the Secretary of State but his bagman Rudy Giuliani. And it`s starting to feel to me more than ever that maybe these two stories Donald Trump getting rolled by Turkish strongman Erdogan and letting him invade Northeast Syria to ethnically cleanse Kurds, and Rudy Giuliani basically lobbying on behalf of the Turkish government starting to feel like maybe those true stories are really one story where the policy of caving to Erdogan, all Trump foreign policy fundamentally now appears suspicious and corrupt. That perhaps it itself is the act of corruption. And coming off a week of deposition after deposition in the Ukraine impeachment tale, it does make you wonder, maybe Ukraine is just this isolated incident in which the President was using Rudy Giuliani and the instruments of American power purely for his own interest, right? Or maybe Ukraine is one example of a thing he has been doing a lot in a lot of places with Rudy Giuliani. And if it`s the latter, maybe you might want an impeachment inquiry that looks into all of it. One of the people in the leadership of the Democratic Party is here with me tonight, the Chairman of the House Democratic Caucus Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York. Good to have to have you. So let`s start on that point about the scope. You know, someone said something the other day and said it`s like when you shake the tree, all these crimes fall out. Like why would you -- why would you stop shaking the tree and keep the inquiry limited to the scope of the Ukraine affair?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well it is very important to shake the tree. I think that`s what we`re doing. What we`ve seen basically is that the Trump administration has been characterized by five things, chaos, crisis, confusion, corruption, and criminal activity. And we are going to --
HAYES: You didn`t just do it on the spot.
JEFFRIES: I did.
HAYES: No, you didn`t.
JEFFRIES: We got to follow the facts, apply to law, be guided by the United States Constitution, and uncover and present the truth to the American people.
HAYES: But that`s not responsive to the question because the question is right now there is an inquiry whose scope, as I understand it, being conducted by Chair Adam Schiff as part of the oversight committees, pursuant to the impeachment inquiry, covers the Ukraine matter and only the Ukraine matter. Am I misunderstanding that?
JEFFRIES: Well, actually to clarify and to modify that, the focus will remain on the Trump-Ukraine scandal as we know it because there`s evidence of wrongdoing that`s hiding in plain sight. And what you have is that the President pressure the foreign leader to target an American citizen for political gain and then withheld at the same time $391 million in aid to a very vulnerable country that had been authorized on a bipartisan basis. That is textbook abuse of power, undermines our national security, and the president betrayed his oath of office. And so, the Intel Committee led by Adam Schiff who`s doing a phenomenal job will continue to unwind that thread. But Speaker Pelosi has also said that we are operating under an impeachment inquiry umbrella. So there are a total of six committees looking at the wrongdoing that has continued to come out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. The Foreign Affairs Committee is involved, the Oversight Committee is involved, the Ways and Means Committee is involved, the Financial Services Committee is involved, and of course, the Judiciary Committee is involved as well.
HAYES: There`s also one other aspect of this which pertains to Rudy Giuliani which is there now a criminal investigation of the Southern District of New York in which two of Rudy Giuliani`s associates, men who were represented by their own lawyer as being part of President Trump legal team have been indicted in federal court. That`s another variable in this.
JEFFRIES: That`s a variable but it`s part of the same narrative in terms of the wrongdoing that has been unleashed on the country by President Trump. Now, Rudolph Giuliani, you know, what a guy. I mean, failed mayor, failed presidential candidate, failed lawyer, on his way to being a convicted felon.
HAYES: You think -- do you really mean that?
JEFFRIES: I think so.
HAYES: You think -- you think -- I mean, in all seriousness, do you think he has criminal exposure right now?
JEFFRIES: Absolutely, for the reasons that you laid out in terms of the possibility that he was illegally lobbying on behalf of the Turkish government. But here`s the key. The rough transcript of the July 25th phone call makes clear that Rudolph Giuliani certainly in the context of the Ukraine scandal was operating at the explicit direction of Donald Trump who made it clear to the Ukrainian president that he was to follow up with his personal lawyer who`s not a diplomat, he`s not a member of the State Department, the diplomatic corps, or an ambassador. He was a political thug operating on behalf of Donald Trump to solicit foreign interference in the 2020 election. That`s outrageous.
HAYES: Yesterday, Mick Mulvaney came out and admitted it. And I think he -- in his defense I think he got confused because they alternate between, we didn`t do it and we did it, it`s fine. And he forgot which day it was in terms of the messaging. But I saw Jim Jordan say well, it doesn`t change anything for me. I mean, do you feel like your Republican colleagues on the House side -- and I saw Congressman Rooney now, a Republican saying he is open to an impeachment inquiry. Is there any set of facts or is it just there is no set of facts that would sway them?
JEFFRIES: Well, there are some members on the Republican side who are part of what I refer to as the cover-up caucus. And they are simply -- right, it`s unfortunate. They`re not interested in upholding their oath of office. They`re interested in covering up wrongdoing by Donald Trump. Hopefully, there are others who take seriously the fact that we are in Congress not to put party first but to put country first and that`s what we should --
HAYES: How do you -- I`ve seen a lot of reporting on the timeline here and there was a lot of reporting about aids and people in leadership like yourself thinking to move quickly and strike while the iron is hot because the facts are quite damning and they`re out and from the public. And you have polls showing that as many as 55, 54 percent in favor of impeachment itself. How do you -- how do you think about the timeline and how do you balance that with what we talked about earlier about getting to the bottom of things?
JEFFRIES: Well, what the Speaker said is that we`re going to proceed expeditiously which I interpret as potentially something is done prior to the end of the year as it relates to the recommendations that the six committees led by the Intel Committee will make to the Judiciary Committee as relates to potential articles of impeachment. Now, one thing about the Mulvaney reveal, that was a straight-up confession --
HAYES: Yes.
JEFFRIES: -- of what took place.
HAYES: That is the correct word.
JEFFRIES: I appreciate your affirmation. But you know, listen, we`re going to undertake a serious and solemn investigation as it relates to unraveling what has occurred in presenting the truth to the American people.
HAYES: I wanted to offer my condolences for the loss of your remarkable colleague Elijah Cummings who passed away yesterday. He obviously was -- has had an incredible career long before Donald Trump ever ran for office, but has also been crucial as part of the Oversight Committee. How are you and your colleagues dealing with that loss?
JEFFRIES: Well, it was a very tough day on the Hill. He was an incredible statesman, an incredible man, an incredible public servant. And he would consistently encourage us to defend our democracy, stand up for the Constitution, make sure that we present the truth to the American people consistent with our solemn obligations as members of the House of Representatives, the people`s house. He inspired us with his wisdom and with his work ethics, and with his integrity and stature in life. His legacy will continue to inspire us to finish the job that he was such an important part of starting.
HAYES: All right, Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York, thank you very much. I appreciate it. If you are having trouble following everything that`s happening with the Ukraine scandal, it`s actually a lot less complicated than you think but it`s also far more damning. We`re going to talk about that next.
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