MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: "Secretary of State Pompeo tries to block."

Interview

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MADDOW: I want to go back to our top story tonight, the surprise news breaking late in the day today that the inspector general from the State Department today, surprise, reached out to multiple congressional committees with what those committees described as an urgent request to come up to "The Hill" and brief those committees about documents related to the State Department and Ukraine. Again, this is a request to Congress by the inspector general of the State Department. This is an independent official. He does not need anyone`s permission to do this. But we really don`t know what it is that he so urgently thinks Congress needs to see what he`s got, and they need to see it right away despite the fact that Congress in fact is on recess right now. Joining us is Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. He`s a member of the Foreign Relations Committee, also the Appropriations Committee, two committees that have been alerted by this inspector general he has stuff he believes they need to see. Senator, thank you for your time tonight. I appreciate it.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Thanks for having me.

MADDOW: I know that you are away from Washington yourself. I know that you`ve also been able to follow this news a little bit. Can you tell us anything else about this request from the State Department inspector general that he wants to show documents to your committees?

MURPHY: Yes, no, I can`t, unfortunately. I`m waiting to receive that briefing just like everyone else is. I mean, listen, this is a moment for patriots to step up to the plate. This is a moment for people who have information inside the administration who can give us a fuller picture as to how broad and deep this corruption was, to come to Congress. And so, I think we all will be eager to hear what this new information is. Maybe it helps us to fill out a picture for us as we head into this inquiry.

MADDOW: On the Foreign Relations Committee, of course, you have keen interest in the behavior of the State Department and the secretary of state. Mike Pompeo is trying to block State Department officials and even a recently resigned State Department official from giving depositions to the impeachment inquiry even though those officials in most cases would seem to be direct fact witnesses to some of what`s gone on here. I mean, I know that you`re an institutionalist when it comes to these agencies and these parts of our government. I just -- I wonder if you believe that Mike Pompeo is within his rights to try to block these officials from giving testimony given particularly the fact that he himself may be a fact witness to what happened here?

MURPHY: So, he absolutely is not within his rights to block this testimony. The House or the Senate has the ability to compel testimony from these individuals because of the wrongdoing that they may have been a part of or witnessed. It is frankly rich for the secretary of state to be making these totally un-based claims about intimidation of State Department employees given the fact that the inspector general has issued a scathing report of Secretary Pompeo, making clear that for years, Secretary Pompeo and before that Secretary Tillerson, have been engaged in a campaign of trying to root out and punish civil servants inside the State Department that are not political supporters of President Trump. Of course, though, Rachel, this testimony is important. Eventually, the courts, I think, will require these State Department officials to come before the House, but it is not necessary given that we have a confession of guilt. We have the president in a transcript admitting to doing something that is likely illegal, that is fundamentally corrupt, and that should subject him to impeachment. And so, what we`re trying to get through all these witnesses coming before the House is a fuller picture of how big this scandal is that may, in the end, convince Republicans to come on board and support a process that right now has been started by the Democrats in the House.

MADDOW: Beyond what the president did, and it seems like now the likely prospect he will be impeached for it, the bigger lens picture on what he was doing vis-a-vis Ukraine is he was really weakening Ukraine, that the U.S. has stood up for Ukraine since they got invaded by Russia 5 1/2 years ago. That we have been a real stalwart ally for them as they have tried to resist Russia, not only taking part of their country but occupying another big swath of their country. The president`s actions have been seen as weakening them and putting them in a worse negotiating position with regard to Russia. Now, there is news today that the Ukrainian government is moving ahead with a deal to basically -- I mean, I`m sure there`s lots of different ways to look at this, but it seems like to sort of reify what Russia has done, to let them settle with Ukraine and letting them keep Crimea and with elections scheduled in Eastern Ukraine so that those parts of Ukraine may ultimately be subject to permanent Russian influence as well. This was a surprise to me today. I don`t know if you`ve been following this so closely that you knew this was coming?

MURPHY: Well, I mean, it`s no secret that Zelensky in his campaign ran on two promises. One, that he was going to continue the fight against corruption, and two, that he was going to try to seek to bring peace into Eastern Ukraine. The problem with the timing of Trump`s announcement that he was suspending aid to Ukraine was that it came right at the moment where Zelensky needed Trump to play bad cop. Zelensky needed Trump to be tougher than ever on Russia so that Zelensky could reach out and try to get some accommodation, to try to provide a path forward to settle accounts with Russia in Eastern Ukraine and push the Russian army out. Trump fundamentally weakens Zelensky`s hand by telegraphing to Putin that we may be pulling up stakes. So, Zelensky needed, after the election, to deliver on his promise of sitting down and having some discussion with Russians. But there is no way he got an optimal deal with Putin because Putin saw that at this moment, this critical moment for Zelensky, the United States was pulling away.

MADDOW: Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut -- sir, thank you for your time this evening. I really appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thanks, Rachel.

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