MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show - Transcript: "Trump reverses decades of policy."

Interview

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MELBER: Much of the political center of gravity this week has been fixed of course on the Mueller testimony Wednesday, then on the House Judiciary Committee`s response this morning. But there`s another question that has been looming. Will the president be allowed to use money allocated for the Defense Department to build hundreds of miles of wall on the southern border? The White House had been blocked from using any of that money from a smack-down by a lower court that said this $2.5 billion Pentagon dollars could not just be moved that only Congress can appropriate and make that kind of decision. Now, when appealing the ruling, the administration first said they needed the money by early July. Then they found a workaround which said Supreme Court could actually go until July. So, the DOJ asked the Supreme Court to rule by today on this frozen money for the border wall. And late this evening, the conservative majority on the Supreme Court gave a narrow ruling, 5-4 vote. Court saying the border wall money will not be stopped for now, and the majority gave a reason and it`s not an endorsement of the wall, but rather, a rejection of the people bringing the case, saying they didn`t have the right legal status to challenge the matter in court. That doesn`t mean the Supreme Court`s affirming that this use of the money is definitely constitutional, but instead that to the extent that these are the people suing they were the wrong people.And tonight, some of those very people associated with the Sierra Club and other groups say they will keep fighting the construction of the wall. They say this is not over, and there are, of course, open cases. Now, as a matter that began as a standoff between a president who wanted this money for a wall, a Democratic House that said no, there are a lot of other folks reacting to this news, including what the role is in fighting this administration`s seizure of this funding. So, let`s turn now to Democratic Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi of Illinois, a member of the House Oversight Committee, which has been dealing with the administration`s handling of the southern border, among other issues. Thank you so much for being here.

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Thank you, Ari.

MELBER: What does it mean that the Supreme Court says this money can actually be used for now, but they haven`t ruled on the merits as we say of the larger question?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, it looks like they may have even hinted what they`re going to do in the underlying lawsuit. They said that the plaintiffs appear not to have standing, in this case, environmental groups. But the second thing that I would just point out is I believe that the government should not win on the merits of the underlying lawsuit mainly because they need to show that Congress had not already denied funding for the purpose for which they`re seeking the funding, in this case, a border wall. You know back in the January, February time frame, we had the longest partial government shutdown in history, and it was very clear coming out of that that Congress did not want to provide funding for the border wall. They only appropriated a fraction for certain borders secure securing measures, but not the wall specifically. And so, the third point I would just make is that I think this sets a bigger precedent than just in this case, namely, that the executive can basically misappropriate money by declaring a national emergency. And this is a very bad precedent for the future.

MELBER: Yes, I mean, isn`t that just the obviously wild part of all this even though this is as I mentioned a little narrow ruling and that the president seemed to suggest on Twitter, no shocker there. But if a couple bill can be moved around, then what`s the stopping a president removing 10 bill or a hundred bill. I mean, you know sometimes it comes down to common sense, and if the scale were a dollar or a cup of coffee that you guys didn`t appropriate I think reasonable people might say leave it alone. But if it`s three bill, what`s to stop a hundred bill and at that point doesn`t that completely undercut Congress`s independent taxing and spending authority?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, the power of the purse belongs to Congress, and what this ruling does is that they basically eviscerates that power. Now, interestingly back in the April-May time frame, you might remember the House and the Senate in bipartisan majorities voted to disapprove of the declaration of the emergency by the president, interestingly in the Senate, 12 Republicans joined with Democrats. So, fifty-nine members of the Senate voted to basically disapprove of this declaration of the emergency, not enough for a filibuster proof of a majority which you need -- which needs 60 votes however very close. The question is whether any Republican senators were hanging back, expecting the courts to basically smack down the president`s declaration, now that we`ve seen what`s happening in the courts, whether there might be some additional votes in the Senate to go forward with the filibuster-proof majority, disapproving this national declaration of an emergency.

MELBER: I`m realizing filibuster-proof majority, hard to get, hard to say.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: But there`s got to be a better word, there`s got to be a better word.

MELBER: I mean, lawyers and politicians you know always have extra fancy terminology. But we`re keeping up with you. The filibuster of being something that as you mentioned you have to get over if you want to do some of the accountability, and you have this president. Congressman, I know you`ve been all over this issue, and I really appreciate you walking us through some of it tonight.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Absolutely. I`m going to the border on Wednesday of next week and, you know, it`s really sad what`s happening down there. I want to see how our monies that were newly appropriated are being used. We can`t treat people the way we`re treating them at the border right now.

MELBER: I appreciate you`re saying that and I think it`s also an educational reminder for us. We use the term recess lightly. It sounds like you`re using your recess out of Washington next week to go to work and do oversight. I`ll say on behalf of MSNBC, I think we`d love to keep up with you and learn what you`re finding out there.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Yes, sir.

MELBER: So, again, Congressman, thank you.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Yes, sir. Thank you. Thank you, Ari.

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