MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show - Transcript: "Trump, Kim Jong Un shook hands at DMZ."

Interview

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MADDOW: That video of a 12-year-old girl held at the border patrol facility in Clint, Texas, for two weeks. That was obtained by the "Associated Press" this evening. Joining us now is Congressman Jerry Nadler of New York. He is the high profile chairman of the very powerful House Judiciary Committee, which does have jurisdictions over a bunch of details involved here. Mr. Chairman, thanks for being here.

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY): Thank you.

MADDOW: There`s a number of things I want to talk to you about tonight. Thank you for coming in. But I have to ask your reaction to what you heard from your House colleagues there and from these other reports that we`ve had about the facilities on the border. Obviously, your committee has some jurisdiction on this matter.

NADLER: We do, but we don`t control the agencies. Obviously, what we saw today was disgusting. When we were at the border a couple of months ago, we saw also -- although they didn`t let us talk to the kids, we saw very disgusting conditions then. This is inhumane. This is -- frankly, I think it`s criminal. There ought to be criminal prosecutions of some of the agency heads and some of the people for child abuse. This is clearly child abuse. It violates a half dozen laws.

MADDOW: Do you think it should be pursued as federal prosecution or do you think this is a matter of state law?

NADLER: Well, probably both. Probably both.

MADDOW: In terms of what can be done, I know there was a lot of conflict and controversy within the Democratic Caucus last week as to whether or not the house bill, which included restrictions on the way that the Trump administration and the agencies can treat immigrants, whether that bill would supersede the Senate bill that didn`t include any of those restriction and ultimately the Senate bill went forward and that was a source of controversy within the caucus. Can you talk to us at all about that decision?

NADLER: Well, I voted against the final bill because I didn`t have enough guarantees in my opinion that the money would be used to give them proper medical and other attention. And it didn`t have enough guarantees that the Trump administration wouldn`t divert funds to more detention instead of better conditions. But the money has been appropriated and ought to be used now quickly to make conditions better, to -- and, of course, it`s one thing to make the conditions better, which is what the money is for. Secondly, these kids should not be separated from their parents or relatives in the first place. That is unconscionable and not necessary legally. It`s just more of the administration determining to torture people in order to be a deterrent for people coming over the border, which they no longer admit is the case but that he admitted it was the purpose a few months ago.

MADDOW: As we -- as we continue to get these ongoing reports of kids and families being held in appalling conditions and we continue to get reports about kids being separated from their parents, it sort of feels like no level of criticism makes an impact. Nothing makes a difference in terms of what the Trump administration does. The inspector general at the Department of Homeland Security last month had an appalling report on the conditions in which immigrants were being held. "BuzzFeed" is reporting that there`s another I.G. report that`s going to come out that`s describing even worse conditions and we`ve got these firsthand reports from the little girl and from lawyers who have been there and now, from member who have been there. It just feels like none of that ever goes anywhere. The Trump administration is not shamed by these reports at all, nor are they acting to change anything.

NADLER: That`s correct. And just as the story with the scientists, they are just going to go ahead and destroy the government`s ability to do science. Let`s put our heads in the sand so we don`t know what`s happening.

MADDOW: Yes.

NADLER: The executive branch is in charge of -- you can have lawsuits and the lawsuits might result in court orders to have better -- that`s the only thing I can think of right away. I mean, for Congress to pass laws, they have to be enforced. And it takes months to pass laws at best.

MADDOW: Is it possible to impeach individual officials who are in charge of these agencies and hold their feet to the fire in the House?

NADLER: It is technically possible to impeach mid-level officials, but that takes a long time and that`s not the answer here.

MADDOW: Congressman Jerry Nadler is the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, I have a number of things I want to ask you about, including your expected visit from Robert Mueller, which is coming up shortly. We will be right back with Chairman Nadler after this. Stay with us.

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MADDOW: Joining us once again is Congressman Jerry Nadler of New York. He`s the chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Mr. Chairman, thank you again for being here. You`ve got Robert Mueller coming in to testify before your committee, thanks to a subpoena in 16 days. I want to ask about the negotiations that led to that and what are the sort of terms that you set around the -- leading up to the subpoena that might give us an expectation of what the day is going to be like.

NADLER: Well, the problem was that Mueller didn`t want to testify in private at all. He was happy to testify in front of our Judiciary Committee and the Intelligence Committee and have a transcript released a day or two later, but he was not willing to testify in public. We thought it absolutely essential that he testify in public so people could see it and hear it. That was what the negotiation was all about. And the agreement reached is he will come in on the 17th and he will testify for about two to two and a half hours in front of the Judiciary Committee. Then he will testify for another two hours or so in front of the Intelligence Committee in public. And then he will testify in private in front of the Judiciary Committee and then in private in front of the --

MADDOW: He`s going to do a closed session with each committee?

NADLER: Yes, yes.

MADDOW: And that will be him, not his staff?

NADLER: Those -- what is what unclear.

MADDOW: Aah.

NADLER: The public testimony in front of each committee will be him.

MADDOW: And the closed testimony , it`s still -- when I talked to Congressman Schiff about this last week, he suggested that Mueller himself won`t be there in the closed testimony and it will be staff instead. But with you, that`s still not sure?

NADLER: It`s unclear.

MADDOW: So, if you got --

NADLER: It may very well be his deputies.

MADDOW: And do you know how many of them it would be, if it`s going to be not Mueller but rather his deputies?

NADLER: Probably one or two.

MADDOW: Which ones?

NADLER: I`m not going to say the names.

MADDOW: I knew you weren`t, I could tell. I have to ask. So, imagining that two or two and a half hours for the open session. How --

NADLER: For each committee.

MADDOW: For each committee. But you`re going first, right judiciary before intelligence.

NADLER: Yes, yes.

MADDOW: So, you`ve got him for the first two, two and a half hours. How do you plan to approach that in terms of getting the most and the most critical information out of him? Is this going to be questioning by you and the ranking member or by all the members? Are you going to have staff question him?

NADLER: No, it`s going to be by the members. It will be by the members, in the normal order. We will question him about this -- the question about the report, first of all, his report led not just report, his investigation led to 37 indictments. It led to the outlining in the report of 10 instances of obstruction of justice by the president. It led to the revelation of repeated instances of the president instructing people to lie to investigators and the public in order to cover up what he had done. This is rather important stuff, and it has to be -- it has to be explored. So we will be going through all of that, and we`ll also ask him questions, I`m not going to list exactly what the questions are, obviously, but I imagine we`ll be asking questions about the misleading, the misrepresentation of his report by the attorney general. You know, the president and the attorney general have conducted a campaign of lies and misrepresentations and the president said they found no collusion and no obstruction. The report did not find no collusion. The report did not find no obstruction. It`s a simple lie and he`ll have to -- we will ask him to clarify both of those. The attorney general misrepresented the report in public. Mueller wrote a letter saying you misrepresented the report. We`ll ask him I`m sure in what way was it misrepresented. There`s been a campaign to lull the American people into thinking that everything is fine, whereas in fact that report shows repeated instances of obstruction of justice by the president. It shows that the Russians attacked our election and that there were hundreds of contacts, between 100 and 170 as I recall, contacts between campaign officials and people representing the Russian government that the campaign welcomed the help of the Russian government in its attempt to swing the campaign to Trump. All of that is in the report and all of that has been lied about by the president and the attorney general. We have to correct the record and let the people hear so people can see and the American people can see what, in fact, was going on.

MADDOW: Has there been or do you anticipate an effort by the Justice Department or White House to curtail his testimony or keep him from talking about anything in particular?

NADLER: Well, they are doing that to every other witness and we will be going to court on that shortly, but I would be surprised if they tried to do it many Mueller because he does not work for the Justice Department and I don`t think he would stand for it. They have no legal right. With Hope Hicks and McGahn and others, they have used this so-called claim of absolutely immunity. You may not talk about anything. And, of course, Hope Hicks obeyed that with White House lawyers sitting there and telling her don`t answer the question of where your desk was located, don`t answer a question about anything. They have done it with McGahn. I don`t think that -- I mean, there`s clearly no legal right to do that. I don`t think Mueller would allow himself to be coerced into such an illegal and unpatriotic attitude.

MADDOW: Congressman Jerry Nadler of New York, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee -- sir, thank you. Appreciate you being here. Thanks for coming in.

NADLER: Thank you.

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