CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders

Interview

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TAPPER: Hello. I'm Jake Tapper in Detroit, Michigan, where the state of our union is counting down to the debates.

We're live outside of the Fox Theatre in Detroit, where, in just days, 20 Democratic presidential candidates will meet on stage for the CNN Democratic presidential debates.

As the candidates prepare to take the stage here in Michigan, a state President Trump narrowly won in 2016, they're signaling their disagreements over issues that could shape the future of the party and of the country.

For his part, President Trump is continuing to use divisive, even racist attacks on Democratic members of Congress who are members of minority groups, a campaign tactic he signaled two weeks ago he would make the foundation of his reelection campaign, when he told four minority members of Congress to go back to the countries where they came from, even though three were born here in the U.S. and all four are American citizens.

Yesterday, President Trump attacked Maryland Congressman Elijah Cummings, tweeting that his majority African-American congressional district, which includes parts of Baltimore, is -- quote -- "a disgusting rat and rodent infested mess. If Cummings spent more time in Baltimore, maybe he could help clean up this very dangerous and filthy place. No human being would want to live there" -- unquote.

Seven hundred eighteen thousand human beings live in Cummings' district. And President Trump is their president as well, though he apparently views them and the city of Baltimore as someone else's responsibility.

Moreover, President Trump attacked those four freshman congresswomen of color under the guise of their criticisms of the U.S., which the president is doing here as well, of course, unless he does not believe Baltimore is part of America.

Joining me now in Detroit, 2020 presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders.

And, Senator Sanders, I know you want to talk about issues, but I do also want to talk about what President Trump said about your former colleague in the House Elijah Cummings and his district being -- quote -- "a disgusting rat and rodent infested mess that no human being would want to live in."

What's your response?

SANDERS: Jake, it's unbelievable that we have a president of the United States who attacks American cities, who attacks Americans, who attacks somebody who's a friend of mine.

Elijah Cummings is one of the most decent and outstanding members of the House of Representatives. He fights every day to improve life in his community.

I do find it interesting that, when we have rural Republican districts where life expectancy is going down, where downtowns are boarded up, where people are struggling -- and people are struggling in rural America. They're struggling in urban America. They're struggling in suburban America.

Our job is to bring people together, to improve life for all people, not to be a -- have a racist president who attacks people because they are African-Americans. That is a disgrace. And that is why we're going to defeat this president.

TAPPER: He obviously thinks that these racist attacks will be effective. Are you concerned that they might be?

SANDERS: No, I don't.

I think, at the end of the day, the American people understand that, whether you're black, whether you're white, whether really Latino, Asian American, Native American, what we need is an agenda that works for all of us, and not have a president who divides us up.

We need health care for all. We need to lower the cost of prescription drugs. We need to make public colleges, universities tuition-free. We need to cancel student debt.

The American people are behind those issues. They will not accept the president trying to divide us up by the color of our skin or where we were born.

TAPPER: Let's talk about one of those issues specifically.

You and other 2020 Democrats are going to be debating on the stage just steps from where we are right now. Your Medicare for all plan will be front and center, no doubt.

Senator Kamala Harris says she supports it, and she will not raise taxes on middle-class Americans to fund it.

I want you to take a listen to what former Vice President Joe Biden had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I find that people who say they're for Medicare for all, but they're not going to tax the middle class, because you don't need to do that, come on. I mean, what is this? Is this a fantasy world here?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:05:10]

TAPPER: Do you agree with Vice President Biden that Senator Harris is in a fantasy world?

SANDERS: Well, I think the first thing that we have to understand is, under Medicare for all, similar to what Canada has, people are not going to pay any premiums. They're not going to pay any deductibles. They are not going to pay any co-payments. So if you call a premium a tax, we're getting rid of that. But I do

believe that, in a progressive way, people will have to pay taxes. The wealthy will obviously pay the lion's share of those taxes.

But at the end of the day, the vast majority of the American people will pay substantially less for the health care that they now receive, because we're going to do away with hundreds of billions of dollars of administrative waste. We're going to do away with the incredible profiteering of the insurance companies and the drug companies.

So people will be paying, in some cases, more in taxes, but, overall, because they're not going to pay premiums, deductibles, co-payments, they will be paying less for their health care.

TAPPER: So, is Vice President Biden correct that anybody who says Medicare for all is going to happen, but we're not going to raise taxes on anybody or on the middle class is a fantasy world?

SANDERS: No, I think...

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: Well, obviously, health care is not free. Right now, we pay it for through premiums and out-of-pocket expenses. In Canada, it's paid through -- paid through taxes. We will have to do that.

TAPPER: A senior aide to former Vice President Biden is laying out his campaign's debate strategy in a new memo that they issued this weekend.

This strategist writes -- quote -- "He's going to draw contrasts where there are policy disagreements in the field, like on health care. Booker, Gillibrand, Harris and Warren all have signed on to Bernie Sanders' Medicare for all plan, which means higher taxes on the middle class. That's a nonstarter for Joe Biden."

SANDERS: Well, you...

TAPPER: Now, you're not -- you're not going to be on the stage with him...

SANDERS: Yes.

TAPPER: ... because of the luck of the draw.

SANDERS: Well, you see, that is disingenuous on the part of Joe.

Yes, it's going to mean higher taxes. But if I raise your taxes, say, hypothetically, by $8,000, and I remove -- and I lower the health care costs that you're now paying with premiums and deductibles, which are now $12,000, you're $4,000 to the good.

We are the only major country on Earth that does not guarantee health cancel to all or, in one form or another, have a national health care program. So, we under a Medicare for all, are going to substantially lower

prescription drug costs. We're going to do away with the incredible complexity and bureaucracy and waste in the current system.

But at the end of the day, again, you may pay more in taxes. You're not paying premiums. You're not paying co-payments. You're not paying deductibles. You will pay less for your health care costs than you're currently paying right now.

TAPPER: And you think Vice President Biden knows that?

SANDERS: Of course he does. And nobody -- nobody -- every study out there tells us that Medicare for all will save substantial sums of money.

Last year, the drug companies made $69 billion in profit at the same time as one out of five Americans can't afford the medicine that they need. So you're seeing massive profiteering on the part of the health care industry.

You're seeing just incredible bureaucracy and waste. Anybody who deals with an insurance company understands the kind of bureaucracy that exists. You're seeing now over 80 million Americans who cannot afford the health insurance that they need. They're either uninsured or they are underinsured.

This is a dysfunctional system designed to make profits for the people in the health care industry, not to provide quality care to all. We're going to end that.

TAPPER: You just talked about the drug companies. You're taking a bus to Canada later this morning to fight for more affordable insulin for people with disabilities.

At a fund-raiser last night here in Detroit, you appeared to compare pharmaceutical industry executives who are artificially jacking up prices to murderers. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: Somebody goes out and shoots somebody, they're called a murderer. We all agree with that. Put them away.

But what happens, what happens if somebody runs a pharmaceutical industry and artificially jacks up the price...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Murderer!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murderer!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Pharmaceutical -- pharmaceutical executives -- I think -- first of all, I misspoke. I said disabilities, when I meant diabetes, obviously, for insulin.

Pharmaceutical executive see themselves as people who help save lives and improve lives.

SANDERS: Right.

TAPPER: Do you really see them as murderers?

SANDERS: Well, here's -- we have -- this is a philosophical issue that we have to deal with.

If, in the case of insulin, people are dying right now -- the cost of insulin has soared in recent years. You have three companies who control over 90 percent of the insulin market. One out of four people -- we have seven million people who use insulin -- one out of four are rationing on insulin.

People are dying. There is strong evidence that there is price- fixing, that these companies simultaneously raise the prices at outrageous levels, far, far, far more than the cost of production.

Jake, if I have a product that costs me a few dollars to make, and I jack up that price, and you can't afford it, and you die, what do you call me?

So you can call them whatever you want. But I will tell you that, as president of the United States, we are going to take on the pharmaceutical industry. We're going to have an attorney general who is going to deal with the incredible concentration of ownership, and we're going to use antitrust legislation.

I'm going right now, in a few minutes, into Canada. The cost of insulin is one-tenth of the price, 10 percent of the price, same products, that we're paying here in the United States.

[09:10:03]

So, you can call the drug company executives whatever you want, but what they are doing involves corruption, in my view. That's price- fixing. It involves unbelievable greed, where they're making -- as I mentioned, the top 10 companies last year made $69 billion in profits. The top three insulin companies make $14 billion in profits.

And people are rationing. One out of four people are rationing their insulin, and people are dying. That is unacceptable in the United States of America.

And if I'm elected president, trust me, they're not going to get away with that.

TAPPER: You recently revealed a plan to forgive all $1.6 trillion of student debt in the U.S., covering 45 million people.

Senator Cory Booker had some criticism of that. Again, you're not going to be on the stage with him ,so I want to give you a chance to address it.

Here's Senator Booker.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's canceling debt for people that are of higher income brackets or going into jobs, whether they're large corporate jobs or Wall Street jobs that are going to give them the ability to pay back their money.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Why should the American taxpayer pay the student debt for the child of a millionaire or an entry-level employee at Goldman Sachs?

SANDERS: Obviously, those are not the people who have the student debt.

The overwhelming majority of people who have student debt are working- class people who are lower-income people. They are African-Americans. They are Latinos. They are struggling right now.

And many of these people, right today, unbelievably -- I talk to them every day -- they can't afford to get married and have kids. They can't afford to buy a house. They can't afford even to buy a car. There's a tremendous weight of oppression around their shoulders.

They were told, go to college. And they did. They took out huge loans. They were told they're going to get good-paying jobs. Well, that did not happen.

Now, my view is that, if the United States Congress could bail out the crooks on Wall Street who destroyed this economy, if we can give a trillion-and-a-half dollars in tax breaks to the top 1 percent and large profitable corporations like Amazon, $11 billion profits in the last year, owned by the wealthiest guy in this country, didn't -- doesn't pay a nickel in federal income taxes.

If we can do that, you know what? We can help save a generation, the millennial generation, and cancel those debts.

TAPPER: Former Vice President Biden is spending a lot of time on the campaign trail defending his support for the 1994 crime bill, which he authored.

You also voted for it, though you made clear your concern about mass incarceration at the time. Let's roll that clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 1994)

SANDERS: We are dooming today tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime and violence.

And, Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world -- and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country -- will not make that situation right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And yet you voted for the bill because there were many provisions in it that you did like.

How do you explain to communities of color today in particular why that yes-vote was worth the cost, even though you saw the mass incarceration problem coming down the pike?

SANDERS: Yes, I'll tell you what.

Look, when you have a large bill, as you well know, Jake, that has many features in it, many provisions in it, you have to make a choice. And the choice that I had made is, I had run for office -- and this was back in '88 and again in 1990.

You know what I said to the people of Vermont? And, by the way, Vermont is a state that then had virtually no gun control laws at all. I said, we have got to ban the sale and distribution of assault weapons -- of assault weapons. That was way back then.

And that's what I told the people. This bill, as you know, the crime bill, did have a ban on assault weapons, also had the provision in there dealing with Violence Against Women Act. And I made a promise to women.

So, I was on the floor -- what you just showed is me understanding how bad aspects of that bill was. But I made a promise to the people of Vermont. And, since then, I have been doing my best helping to lead the effort for real criminal justice reform, so that we end the disgrace of having more people in jail than any other country, so that we have today hundreds of thousands of people in jail because they're too poor to pay for cash bail.

I helped lead the effort against the terrible war on drugs, which has destroyed so many lives. And I'm proud that, in my last campaign, we talked about need to decriminalize or legalize marijuana, something that is happening all over this country.

TAPPER: I know hindsight is 20/20, but, in retrospect, are you -- are you still glad that you voted for the '94 crime bill?

SANDERS: Look, it's -- no, I'm not happy I voted for a terrible bill.

But I am happy that I was honest with the people of my state. People lose faith in politicians because they say one thing and they do another thing. If you tell the people in my state of Vermont I am going to do everything I can to put a ban on assault weapons, and then you don't do that, well, that's the other side of that coin.

TAPPER: The U.S. is on track to apprehend -- whoops. Don't worry about that. That's...

SANDERS: I got your speech here, Jake. Don't worry about it.

TAPPER: That is for Congresswoman Tlaib, so don't worry about it.

But the U.S. is on track to apprehend more than one million undocumented immigrants this year. In the past, you have suggested that increases in migrant workers coming to the U.S. drive wages down for American workers.

I want you to take a listen to yourself on "Lou Dobbs" in 2007.

(LAUGHTER)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 2007)

SANDERS: If poverty is increasing, and if wages are going down, I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:15:05]

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: So, let me just ask you...

SANDERS: Yes.

TAPPER: ... as the larger philosophical question, how do you balance compassion at the border with compassion for Americans and their wages?

SANDERS: Well, what I said about that one, the reason why I voted against that immigration bill, is there were a number of groups, including leading Latino groups, that understood that the guest-worker program in that legislation was akin to slave labor.

Those guests workers coming into this country had no rights at all. So I don't apologize for that vote.

But, right now, what we need is a comprehensive immigration reform package, which does a number of things. Number one, it leads to a path towards citizenship for the 11 million who are undocumented right now. That's what we have got to do.

It provides legal status for the 1.8 million people, young people, who are in the DACA program. And it develops a compassionate and humane process for asylum at the border.

People traveling 1,000 miles by foot with little children are not criminals. They are people dealing with violence and incredible poverty in their own country.

So we need a rational asylum process. We don't need to be ripping little children from the arms of their mothers.

TAPPER: Senator Bernie Sanders, good luck in Canada today. And we will see you on the debate stage on Tuesday night.

Thank you so much, sir.

SANDERS: Thank you very much. Thank you.

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