CNN "Anderson Cooper 360" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jerry Nadler

Interview

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COOPER: Today, Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian election interference echoes much of what Robert Mueller said before Congress yesterday and there's no question both are serious. In the case of Mueller's findings, they also raised serious questions about the president's actions, the point that many Democrats believe that his report and his testimony about it amount to a case for impeachment.

However, since politics is about persuasion, those same Democrats are now coming face to face with questions and skepticism about how persuasive Mueller's testimony really was. Some reviews have been harsh, as had the headlines.

In "The New York Times" for instance, lack of electricity in Mueller testimony short circuits impeachment. Here's "Politico", Pelosi rebuffs Nadler on impeachment after Mueller flop.

Pelosi, of course, is House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Nadler is Congressman Jerry Nadler, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. He joins us now.

Mr. Chairman, thanks so much for being with us.

How likely are impeachment proceedings against the president at this point? We don't have a majority of Democrats on board at this point or speaker of the House for that matter.

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY): Well, I don't know how likely they are, but what I do know is that what we saw from Mr. Mueller yesterday was a report, a deeply researched report that said that the president -- that the Russians had attacked our elections to help Mr. Trump.

[20:20:11] That the Trump campaign welcomed that help from the Russians. That the president lied repeatedly to the American people and engaged in repeated criminal acts of obstruction of justice. These are very serious things and what we have to do now is lay out the evidence before the American people, and that's what we intend to do.

Well, "Politico" is reporting yesterday in a closed door meeting, you were pushing to launch impeachment proceedings against the president, but your efforts were rebuffed by Speaker Pelosi.

Is that in fact how that meeting played out?

NADLER: Well, the meeting -- we're discussing a number of things, but I think everybody agreed that we have to lay out the fact -- before you can consider that, you have to layout the facts to the American people and it is very frustrating that the administration has systematically attacked the right of Congress to hold any administration accountable, opposed all our subpoenas and we have to break that logjam in order to layout the facts before the American people.

That's why we're going to court tomorrow in the first of a series of actions that we'll take in the next couple of days. When we've laid out the facts in front of the American people, then we'll proceed.

COOPER: There are a lot of people who heard Speaker Pelosi talking yesterday and believed that while she's paying lip service to going through the courts. It sounded to them like she's trying to slow walk this so eventually the whole impeachment thing goes away.

How far apart are you from the speaker?

NADLER: I don't think you can say we're slow walking it. Or she's slow walking. We're going into court to get the grand jury information tomorrow, and we will be going into court, assuming that the accommodations haven't worked on Monday or Tuesday, to enforce a subpoena to get McGahn, the main fact witness in front of the Mueller committee -- the Mueller investigation to testify in front of congressional committees, to layout -- and we will be following others.

You know, the administration has opposed all attempts, not just for the investigation, but to get information about the family separation at the border, administration's attempt to rig the census, and anything else. They've opposed all congressional subpoenas, all attempts to find information. We have to break that logjam so we can lay the evidence before the American people and if -- I should say when we win the lawsuit on McGahn that we'll be bringing on Monday or Tuesday, all the rest will follow because they're all the same nonsense legal arguments that the administration uses.

When we have the evidence in front of the American people, then we'll have --

COOPER: There was a lot of talk, though, about putting the evidence before the American people in the Mueller report. When it came out, the line became once Mueller actually testifies, that's going to wake people up and people are going to pay attention.

Were you aware how Mueller was going to testify yesterday? Did you have any advance sense of his grasp of what was in the report, his ability to recall it?

NADLER: We knew -- we knew because they had told us in the week or so leading up to the or two weeks leading up to it that he was going to not comment beyond the four corners of the report and that he was probably going to be very reticent, and we knew that. But it's still very important for him to get his conclusions out to the American people because it was very important to break the lies that we were being told by the president and the attorney general, that there was no collusion or obstruction, that the report totally exonerated him. All of those were lies.

And it became very clear and I think as time goes by over the next few weeks, more and more people will understand this, that the Mueller report found, in fact, that the president's campaign worked -- accepted help, was glad to accept help from the Russians during the campaign. That the president has engaged in multiple acts of obstruction of justice that, in fact, there is such heavy evidence if he were anybody but the president, he would be facing criminal indictment right now.

COOPER: But in terms of Mueller's delivery, if you knew Mueller was going to give what the president called a performance that he gave yesterday, would you have gone ahead with a hearing anyway? He made it clear he didn't want to do this.

NADLER: We would -- we would have gone ahead because it is important that the conclusions of the Mueller report be before the American people unfiltered by the lies of Attorney General Barr and President Trump. You know, Barr has been lying about what was in the report. It was important that that be demolished, and that the findings of the report which are very, very damning to the president be put before the American people.

And even if it wasn't as dramatic as one might have hoped or thought it would be, that information is going to get out more and more.

[20:25:06] And simultaneously, we will be pursuing our efforts to get the actual evidence in front of the American people. That will start, as I said, tomorrow.

COOPER: Adam Schiff says Democrats need to be realistic and that the only way President Trump is leaving office at this point is if he's voted out in 2020. Do you think he's right?

NADLER: I think it's much too early to say that. I don't know. But if -- I don't know that. It's much too early.

What I do know now is that we have to make sure the American people know about the Mueller committee's findings, unfiltered through the lies of the administration which were broken yesterday. I think it was very, very important for Mueller to come out and, in fact, call the lies of the administration for what they were.

And now we -- our job is to get the actual evidence before the American people, which we will start by going -- start doing by going into court tomorrow.

COOPER: But the court, you go to court tomorrow. That could take a long period of time. NADLER: Well, we hope, and I think there is a good chance that the

courts will expedite the proceedings. We will certainly ask for expedition. And I think it's a good chance we'll get it.

COOPER: So you don't buy into the argument that some were making yesterday and today that Mueller, by the way he presented it, did more harm than good? In terms of Democrats --

NADLER: Certainly not. Prior to yesterday, the dominant news for the American people, were the lies of the administration, that the Mueller commission had found no obstruction, no collusion, and it totally exonerated the president. Yesterday, we heard from Mueller who said those were lies. He said he did not -- the committee most certainly did not exonerate the president. They found considerable evidence of -- substantial evidence of very serious crimes, multiple by the president, that it was clear that the Russians had attempted -- had attacked our election in order to benefit the Trump campaign, and that the Trump campaign had welcomed that assistance.

Those are very damning -- and that they are attacking our elections right now and will next year and the administration is doing nothing about it. Those are very damning statements, and it was important to get them out through the blockade of the administration's lies. And I think we did that. I think that was accomplished yesterday. It will get further out as the news media cover it more.

But now, we have to get out more specific evidence and the actual people who were instructed by the president to commit crimes on his behalf, and who testified to the Mueller administration. We have to get them to testify in public now and that's why we're going into court.

COOPER: There have been questions raised about certainly by Republicans, but also just in reporting late, in the last 24 hours about how much Mueller led the investigation, how much was other people. Does -- were you surprised at his, at times, inability to recall specific things or get tripped up --

NADLER: I -- I don't know Mr. Mueller, so I couldn't be surprised or not. But I don't think that's the relevant question.

What the relevant question is, is the information that was gotten out, the fact that Mueller, whether hesitantly or robustly it doesn't matter, said very clearly that the president was not exonerated by his report, that the president -- there was substantial evidence of multiple crimes of obstruction of justice by the president, and that he repeatedly ordered people to lie to the American people and to investigators, and that the Trump campaign welcomed assistance from the Russians. All of those were very important facts. And the personal demeanor of Mueller is less important than the fact that he got -- that he stated those things.

COOPER: Are you willing to launch an impeachment without Speaker Pelosi's blessing? Would that happen?

NADLER: I don't know. What I do know is we have to go step-by-step, and our next step starting tomorrow is to get the evidence before the American people. You know, impeachment is a very serious matter. You don't undertake it because you can't stand the incumbent president.

And I've said in the past there are three things you have to meet for impeachment, and one is that there's proof of impeachable offenses. Second, that those are serious impeachable offenses, and third, that you have the support of a good part -- you have the evidence -- that you have sufficient evidence so you can convince a good part of the American people so that the act of impeaching the president doesn't tear the country apart.

We have to accomplish -- if we're going to do this, we have to accomplish all three of those and as I said, our next step is to produce that evidence and block -- it's to challenge the administration's blockade of all evidence and -- in court, get the evidence released and get the testimony so we can produce that evidence and produce that situation.

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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Chairman Nadler, appreciate your time. Thank you.

NADLER: You're quite welcome.

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