CNN "Anderson Cooper 360" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Ted Lieu
Interview
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COOPER: The president today also called attention to a moment early on that had Democrats buzzing because it went to the heart of the case they were trying to make the special counsel would have indicted the president on obstruction charges were not for the Justice Department guidelines barring a sitting president from being indicted.
That moment happened during questioning by California Democratic Congressman Ted Lieu.
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REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): To recap what we heard, we have heard today that the president ordered former White House counsel Don McGahn to fire you. The president ordered Don McGahn to then cover that up and create a false paper trail. And now, we've heard the president ordered Corey Lewandowski to tell Jeff Sessions to limit your investigation so that he, you stop investigating the president.
[20:05:06] I believe a reasonable person looking at these facts could conclude that all three elements of the crime of obstruction of justice have been met, and I'd like to ask you, the reason again that you did not indict Donald Trump is because of OLC opinion stating that you cannot indict a sitting president, correct?
MUELLER: That is correct.
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COOPER: Well, as you might imagine, that made news, unwelcome news to Mueller who walked back his remarks a short time later.
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MUELLER: I want to go back to one thing that was said this morning by Mr. Lieu who said and I quote, you didn't charge the president because of the OLC opinion. That is not the correct way to say it. As we say in the report and as I said at the opening, we did not reach a determination as to whether the president committed a crime.
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COOPER: Which is consistent with language from his report but still leaves open the question what would Mueller have done if not for the OLC opinion.
I spoke with Congressman Lieu earlier tonight.
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COOPER: Congressman Lieu, your exchange with Mueller produced clearly one of the more surprising responses from him of the day. Were you surprised by his first answer this morning and then by his walk back later in the day?
LIEU: I was not surprised by his first answer because Special Counsel Mueller himself who always brings up the OLC opinion saying that he was instructed he could not indict a sitting president, and I simply walked Special Counsel Mueller through the three elements of obstruction of justice. I showed that they were all met and then I asked him basically is the reason he didn't indict Donald Trump because of that opinion and he said yes. It was perfectly logical and it made perfect sense.
COOPER: So, in -- because when he walked it back, he seemed to lay the blame on you for the way you frame the question rather than himself on the way he answered it. Do you think he didn't understand what you said or do you think he actually did understand it and his original answer was what he really thought but he just didn't want to say that publicly?
LIEU: I believe he fully understood my question. It was a logical extension of me getting him to establish the three elements of obstruction of justice were met and I think it's what he actually believes. I think he may have walked it back because he understood that what that means is we got a felon in the White House, and that's what the hearing showed today, that Donald Trump committed multiple acts of obstruction of justice. Those are felonies.
Now, what the American people and Congress choose to do with that information we'll see in the next few days and weeks.
COOPER: So when he later says that, you know, they reached no conclusion and they reached no con conclusion because of the OLC guidelines of guidelines operating from the beginning, you think in his mind he did reach a conclusion and he did reveal that?
LIEU: Absolutely. He lays out the three elements of obstruction of justice. He said yes to the first two, and then the third element with intent, I simply read him when he wrote in his report. He said there was substantial evidence of corrupt intent. That these all three elements so you can call it whatever you want, but every person who looks at it, including over 1,400 prosecutors, calls it obstruction of justice.
COOPER: There has been a lot of surprise and discussion of how Mueller performed today. It was clearly very different than he had done, you know, in years past. I think this is the first time in six years he was testifying.
Did it surprise you and do you think it muted what Democrats hoped the impact of this would be?
LIEU: I would have liked to have Special Counsel Robert Mueller but he answered yes and true to a number of devastating facts and if the American people are watching this, the only conclusion they conclude is that the Russians systematically and sweepingly interfered in our 2016 elections, the Trump campaign embraced that interference and then the president committed acts of obstruction of justice to stop the investigation into that interference.
COOPER: You could make the argument, the reason he said the president was not exonerated was to tip his hand about that opinion, about his belief, because he could have said there is not a basis to charge him, he didn't say that, which is what he said on, you know, the conspiracy/collusion. He said, you know, that clearly he was not exonerated.
LIEU: That's a great point. So Robert Mueller himself brings up the fact that he did not exonerate the president and then he says the OLC opinion prevents me from indicting a sitting president. That's like saying two plus two and that we're here going OK, that means four, right?
And that's essentially where I got him to commit to today. And if the American people watch these hearings, that's the only conclusion they could come up with that the president of the United States committed multiple felonies.
COOPER: Does this change anything? Do you believe long term? Does this move others in Congress or you toward supporting impeachment, should it move the Democrats in the house toward moving toward impeachment?
LIEU: We know that additional Democratic members of Congress today said that they support opening an impeachment inquiry. We'll see how the American public feels and we'll know in the next few days and next few weeks how the American public assimilates this information that Donald Trump engaged in multiple acts of obstruction of justice which are felonies.
COOPER: And is that what it's going to boil down to for Democrats if the public wants an impeachment or if it's not politically popular, is that something that you should take into account?
LIEU: I believe public sentiment is absolutely a big factor, but so are other factors, including what the Constitution says evidence shows. And again, if anyone watching these two hearings who had not read the Mueller report or learned about the issues, they would have been surprised today because Special Counsel Robert Mueller directly contradicts both Donald Trump and Attorney General Bill Barr.
COOPER: Congressman Lieu, appreciate your time. Thank you.
LIEU: Thank you, Anderson.
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