MSNBC The Situation - Transcript
MSNBC The Situation - Transcript
Tuesday, November 8, 2005
BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
CARLSON: On now to a developing story out of Washington, D.C. Could there be yet another CIA leak scandal on the horizon? It looks that way.
NBC News has learned that the CIA has asked the Justice Department to look into whether any classified information was released improperly in the "Washington Post" stories last week on the CIA secret prisons around the world, the so-called black sites.
This comes on the same day GOP leaders Bill Frist and Dennis Hastert called for a congressional investigation into how that information became public in the first place in the pages of the "Washington Post," something we asked for on this show last week.
Joining us now to discuss the leak probe, Senator Richard Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, joining us from Washington.
Senator, thanks a lot for coming on.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Thank you, Tucker.
CARLSON: So Senator Frist and Speaker Hastert calling for this probe. I'm kind of surprised Democrats, who have so outraged by this Valerie Plame leak, a leak apparently or supposedly classified information weren't on this first. Why not?
DURBIN: Well, quite honestly, I don't know the nature of this disclosure. The Senate Intelligence Committee and the House Intelligence Committee in the ordinary course of business consider these things. And I think they should consider this. I don't know where it came from. I don't know how the "Washington Post" came up with the story.
CARLSON: Right. Of course, I mean, I don't think any of us do at this point, though Senator Lott said earlier today he believed it was actually leaked by a Republican senator. We don't know what he meant by that, whether that's true or not.
DURBIN: It's an amazing comment.
CARLSON: It is an amazing comment, and I'll be interested to know what he meant.
But we learned a lot just from the "Washington Post," from this Dana Priest story that ran the other day, exposing what is not a single secret but an entire classified, top-secret operation run by the CIA.
Its disclosure has obviously hurt the United States, its interests abroad. There's no question that that's happened. So it's a big deal. We know that. Why aren't you mad about it?
DURBIN: Well, of course I'm upset about. I'm upset, particularly, because I asked Alberto Gonzales, as our nominee for attorney general, about this whole process called rendition, where we would take a prisoner and turn that prisoner over to another country, and he told me that was not taking place. So there are a lot of unanswered questions about it.
But I am really concerned that the Republican leaders didn't rise to the same level of anger when it came to the disclosure of the identity of Valerie Plame, a covert CIA agent whose life was endangered because Robert Novak printed this column.
CARLSON: You have no idea if that's true, as far as I know, that her life was in danger. If you have evidence that that's true, I'd be interested to hear it.
DURBIN: Well, I'll tell you exactly. I am glad you asked me that because if you will notice the comments that came out of the professional people at the Central Intelligence Agency, they were outraged at this disclosure, this outing of an agent, and they made it clear that it endangered many other people who had been in contact with her. It's something we shouldn't take lightly.
CARLSON: I'm not taking it lightly. I just-again, you didn't provide evidence that her life was in danger. But that leads to my second question which I think is really interesting.
Why hasn't the CIA demanded the DOJ-the Justice Department-investigate this leak? I mean, there really is-I don't think, any sober person, objective person looking at this can conclude that this isn't a bigger deal. This is an entire operation...
DURBIN: Tucker.
CARLSON: ... that includes hundreds of people.
DURBIN: Tucker, let me tell you, there should be an investigation.
CARLSON: You bet.
DURBIN: You and I both know that what this is about. Speaker Hastert and Senator Frist are trying to turn the page. They want to get away from Scooter Libby. They want to get away from the vice president's position on the McCain Amendment. They want to get away from phase two of the Senate Intelligence Committee Investigation. They want to move to another issue. Everybody knows that.
CARLSON: Well, you're right. You're absolutely right. I think there's no question that's part of what's going on.
DURBIN: Definitely.
CARLSON: But I would hate to see partisan politics, in this case, yours, obscure this.
DURBIN: Wait. Excuse me...
CARLSON: I asked...
DURBIN: Excuse me.
CARLSON: You said-you pointed to evidence you thought of American misconduct in sending al Qaeda suspects off to countries that might torture them.
DURBIN: Yes.
CARLSON: You ignored my core question about, you know, how are...
DURBIN: No, you've ignored my core answer. And my core answer was yes, it should be investigated, as it has been by intelligence committees in the House and the Senate. I'm for it. I'm not staying in the way of it.
CARLSON: Now you-the Democratic leadership has sent a letter to-to President Bush, demanding that he not pardon Scooter Libby.
DURBIN: That's right.
CARLSON: Doesn't this seem a little premature? Scooter Libby had not even been tried. We don't know exactly what the charges are going to wind up being, who's indicted. But we don't know the evidence. We don't know that he's guilty. Shouldn't we wait and find out whether he did it?
DURBIN: Well, of course. If you understand the dynamic of a prosecution, once someone has been indicted, he faces the prospect of being convicted. And in this case, Mr. Libby, the possibility of being incarcerated for up to 30 years.
CARLSON: Right.
DURBIN: At that point, they sit down with the attorney's office and talk about ways that they can lessen the penalty.
CARLSON: Right.
DURBIN: If it come to that. Now, if someone knows, Mr. Libby or others, that ultimately they'll be pardoned, what's the incentive to work toward finding the truth? We believe that the president should make it clear at this point that no pardon will be issued to Mr. Libby.
CARLSON: But wait a second. You're missing half the equation. I would think as a Democrat, as something of a liberal, you'd be interested in hearing the other side, the side of the accused, the person who is not guilty, and he's got a story to tell. And we don't know what that story is.
DURBIN: That's right.
CARLSON: So aren't you prejudging all of this..
DURBIN: he's entitled to his defense.
CARLSON: ... by saying three president ought to foreclose this constitutionally guaranteed option he has, pardons. No, truly.
DURBIN: Well, let me just tell you, he is, of course-enjoys the presumption of innocence, which is exactly what Patrick Fitzgerald said. He can plead not guilty, which he's already done. He can assert his defense.
But if, in fact-you read the indictment...
CARLSON: Right.
DURBIN: ... as I'm sure you have, you understand, this is going to be a hard one to prove.
CARLSON: Yes.
DURBIN: If he received this information from Vice President Cheney on June the 12th, if Mr. Libby then turned and spoke to six individuals about Valerie Plame...
CARLSON: That's right.
DURBIN: ... the CIA agent, and then said to the FBI in grand jury that the first he heard of it was in a conversation with Tim Russert in July.
CARLSON: I agree.
DURBIN: He denies the conversation.
CARLSON: I agree. It looks...
DURBIN: It's a hard case.
CARLSON: It's a tough case. It looks bad for Scooter Libby. If I had to bet, I would bet overwhelmingly he's going to be convicted and face jail time.
DURBIN: But if you knew...
CARLSON: But you want to keep open mind. Don't you? It doesn't seem like you are.
DURBIN: I'm trying to keep an open mind.
CARLSON: Me too.
DURBIN: But if you know that the hold card is an ace, that is a pardon, then what is the likelihood that you will really cooperate with the government to get to the bottom and find out who's responsible for this? Who was it that called Robert Novak in this act of political retribution?
CARLSON: Well, we don't know it was an act of political retribution, but there's a lot we don't know. We will find out-Robert-Senator Richard Durbin of Illinois, thanks a lot for joining us.
DURBIN: Thanks, Tucker.
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