MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Ted Lieu

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Looks like someone`s cell phone there.

And for more, I`m joined by Democratic Congressman Ted Lieu of California,

who serves on the House Judiciary Committee, and Eli Stokols, White House

reporter for "The L.A. Times."

Thank you, Congressman, as always.

Do you think, in Trump`s head, which is crazy like a fox sometimes, he

thinks impeachment is a winner for him? If the economy stay strong with

this 3.6 jobless rate, if he can go into next year with a good economy, and

the Democrats chasing after him, he can say, I`m the winner, I`m helping

your country, I`m helping you economically, and it`s these darn Democrats

that are just getting in my way with this impeachment nonsense?

Is that his game? Does he really want to be impeached?

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): Thank you, Chris, for your question.

I`m not sure the president thinks 20 steps ahead. I don`t actually think

he wants to be impeached. And if you look at his various statements,

especially on Twitter, it seems like he does not want to be impeached.

But with his actions of simply denying every single subpoena request from

Congress, that may push us to a place where that`s going to be our only

option. Right now, we have held the attorney general in contempt. That is

a tool we have. Going to start escalating the various options we have.

But, at some point, if we`re going to get no information from the

administration, we may have to consider impeachment.

MATTHEWS: It`s never clear. We were just talking off-air about predicting

anything, Eli. You never know.

ELI STOKOLS, "THE LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well…

MATTHEWS: And I`m not sure anybody knew when Clinton was impeached for his

misbehavior how the -- and history is not even clear now what the final

result of that is. Nobody wants to be impeached.

Nobody wants that mark against you in history. But it didn`t hurt him in

real time.

STOKOLS: Well, nobody -- I mean, you`re right. Like, if they were to go

down this road, we don`t know how it would play politically, until you get

there. That is true.

But I can tell you that there is no way that President Trump wants his name

associated with the word impeached. I mean, look how insecure this guy is

just about his 2016 electoral victory. That`s a big part of the reason why

we`re in this whole situation, why he can`t crack down on Russia, why he`s

obstructed…

MATTHEWS: Well, why is he baiting?

STOKOLS: Well, I don`t know that he`s baiting, so -- or that he thinks

about it that way.

I think what the speaker was talking about is the sort of self-fulfilling

prophecy of Trump, where his actions almost force the reactions that make

him go so -- that upset him so much. And so what she`s saying is, he`s

behaving in such a way that they have no choice.

He`s really moved her off of saying, we`re not pursuing this, to now, with

the Mueller report coming out and then the president`s response to it,

she`s basically saying, yes, we don`t -- we, as an Oversight Committee, we

don`t have much choice.

MATTHEWS: Well, yesterday, the president`s would-be 2020 rival Senator

Elizabeth Warren, one of his potential rivals, renewed her call for

impeachment in a lengthy speech on the Senate floor.

Here she goes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not a fight

I wanted to take on. But this is the fight in front of us now.

This is not about politics. This is about the Constitution of the United

States of America. We took an oath not to try to protect Donald Trump. We

took an oath to protect the -- and serve the Constitution of the United

States of America.

And the way we do that is, we begin impeachment proceedings now against

this president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Meanwhile, the Associated Press reports impeachment talk has

emboldened this president`s reelection campaign, writing, "Trump`s team has

taken to cheering every call to impeach the president, believing such talk

only further motivates Trump supporters and turns off moderates from the

Democratic Party," adding, "The president himself still intends to run as

the victim of perceived slights by the media and Democrats, in large part

because he believes the aggrieved stance rallies supporters to his

defense."

How can that not be true?

Congressman, this is the catch-22 for the Democrats, because if Trump

believes that playing the victim works, if he looks like he`s the underdog

against the deep state, the unfair media, the unfair partisan Democrats, he

rallies the people that voted for him the first time who feel that their

votes are being denied them.

So -- and yet the Constitution says that Congress should be an equal branch

of government.

LIEU: I agree with Eli.

I don`t think Trump wants to be impeached. I think what`s happening is,

Trump is trying to not get impeached, which is why he`s trying to hide

information from the American people.

He didn`t just stonewall the Judiciary Committee. He stonewalled every

single committee trying to get information for the American people to

conduct oversight. And that`s because he knows that the Mueller report is

bad for him. That`s why Republicans changed their tune.

Republicans voted earlier this year by voted 422-0, bipartisan vote, to get

the full Mueller report. Now they`re saying, no, no, no, we don`t want it.

And why is that? Because they read the redacted version, and they realize

how bad this is for the president and his enablers.

MATTHEWS: Do you believe the poll that we got that only 17 percent of the

American people believe that Congress should begin impeachment proceedings,

not vote for impeachment, begin proceedings, just 17 percent? Do you buy

that?

STOKOLS: Oh, I don`t know how much stock I would put into…

MATTHEWS: That`s so low.

STOKOLS: .. any single poll

But I think, generally, the polling shows that a majority of the country

believes that the president was not honest in terms of the investigation.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I agree with that.

STOKOLS: And, at the same time, a majority is not interested in pursuing

impeachment.

As the speaker has said, the facts are kind of all out there in the open.

The obstruction, at least, has taken place out in the open. So I think, on

both sides of this, a lot of folks seem to have their minds made up.

MATTHEWS: That`s what blows people`s minds, including mine, the fact that

the president can execute what are clearly impeachable obstruction of

justice moves, trying to fire Mueller, firing Comey, all this stuff in

broad daylight.

And yet the public goes, well, since he did it in broad daylight, it must

be sort of legal, or something.

Congressman, thank you so much, Ted Lieu of California, for coming on,

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