MSNBC "Hardball" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Mary Gay Scanlon

Interview

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I`m joined right now by Democratic U.S. Congresswoman, Mary Gay Scanlon,

who is the Vice Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, was in today`s

hearing, Yamiche Alcindor, White House Correspondent for the PBS NewsHour,

And Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney.

Congresswoman, it`s great to have you on but it`s a terrible time. I don`t

know what -- it`s a constitutional crisis. Explain that to the person who

remembers civics and where we are right now, because it is a strange time,

even though it`s Trump time, it`s still strange.

REP. MARY GAY SCANLON (D-PA): That`s how I got here. I have been a civics

educator for a long time and it`s this thwarting of our government and the

coequal branches that is really the reason why many of us ran. It`s seeing

that we have a President who not only doesn`t know how government works but

doesn`t care how it works and isn`t in government for the good of the

country.

MATTHEWS: Are you stunned by Trump`s behavior or are you used to it now?

Because it seems like every day, he says enough. I don`t care what you

guys think. I don`t see what the protocols are or the constitution is. He

just says no. I`m not going to give you the documents. I`m not going to

let anybody to testify, even if they once worked here. Nobody is going to

do what you guys want.

SCANLON: Well, he`s bringing the bare-knuckled New York real estate world

to Washington but Washington doesn`t work that way and our government

doesn`t work that way.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to Joyce on this. I`m still back to my problem, which

is I believe in the constitution -- actually, I believe in regular order.

I`m boring. I think things should work the way they always have work,

which is of you`re subpoenaed, you respond to it. If not, the court makes

it do it, because in the end there has to be referee and it has to be. But

even Nixon would go along with the courts. He turned over the tapes. He

gave up his whole career because they said to do it. I don`t trust Trump

to do it based upon what`s going on right now.

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes, I think that`s right. There is no

reason to trust. And, you know, to compare this contempt situation with

Attorney General Barr to the time when Eric Holder as Attorney General was

held in contempt, that ruling came after the Justice Department had turned

over something like 7,600 documents and had made multiple witnesses

available. So there is this good faith effort to comply with subpoenas.

Here, we have a President who has issued a flat out edict to his people.

Do not show up. Do not testify. Exert executive privilege over all

documents. This is an executive president who wants to remain immune from

any scrutiny. That`s not how the constitution works.

MATTHEWS: You know, Yamiche, you and I talk about this off-camera. And I

just think the closer we -- everyday is, look, we`re going to attend

(INAUDIBLE) a crazy country where there is no history of democracy. I

don`t want to knock any other country because we`re better. We`ve been

doing this since the late 18th century and yet it sounds like we haven`t

been doing it or acting now like we haven`t had 257 years of getting

regular election every two years. The branches of government respect each

other, they have little arguments and they`re resolved by the courts and we

move on.

This President is now saying, I`m going to assert executive privilege over

the universe. Anybody I know, anybody who has ever worked for me, any

paper that comes out of this federal government and any agency, including

Justice Department, I own.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS NEWS HOUR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I put the

question to Sarah Sanders, the White House Press Secretary, today. I said,

what do you make of the people who say President Trump is edging us closer

to a constitutional crisis? Her response was democrats are overreaching

and the White House is the one that`s really being bullied by another

branch of Congress, another branch of the government rather. Democrats, of

course, say that this is really oversight. This is our constitutional duty

to do this.

But I should tell you, Chris, I`ve talked to people that are from

Venezuela, from Haiti, they say, look at this very carefully. This is how

authoritarian governments start. They start by the fact that, first, he

was talking about jailing his opponents. Now, he`s talking about the idea

that he doesn`t have to answer to Congress. So there are people, mostly

democrats, who are from authoritarian governments who are sounding the

alarm saying, America really needs to watch out.

MATTHEWS: Yes, people that come from, well, Cuba, places like that, you

know, Venezuela. A misleading attack, republicans in today`s hearing,

repeatedly accused democrats of asking the Attorney General to break the

law that protects grand jury materials from being disclosed. Let`s watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DEBBIE LESKO (R-AZ): Democrats and Chairman Nadler and his committee

are asking the Attorney General to break the law, break the law by

releasing grand jury information to Congress.

REP. JIM SENSENBRENNER (R-WI): What we`re doing here is forcing the

Attorney General to break the law.

REP. TOM MCCLINTOCK (R-CA): To comply with the subpoena, he must break the

law. If he obeys the law, he must disobey the subpoena.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: You know, anyway, democrats have argued since early April that

they`re not asking Barr to break the law. They are simply asking him to

obtain permission from the district court, the federal district court, to

allow the disclosure of those materials. Here`s Chairman Nadler

reiterating that point today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NADLER: All we have ever asked is that the department join us in

petitioning the court to determine if it is proper for us to have access to

this material.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Congresswoman, explain to the viewers right now why it`s

important for Congress, your committee, judiciary, to get his hands on the

full report, the full Mueller report. What are you looking for in there?

SCANLON: Well, look, when Robert Mueller filed his report, he explicitly

said, I`m not going recommend charges against the President because I don`t

think I can under the rules of the Department of Justice. But we need to

preserve this evidence. I found obstruction of justice. I`m going to lay

it out so we preserve that evidence and Congress can act on this. So

that`s what we are going do.

MATTHEWS: Well, let`s talk about one bit of beef here through all the

gristle, the reality of McGahn`s testimony, to the Special Counsel. The

President of the United States told him to fire the Special Counsel. That,

to me, is enough. That`s right up there with Saturday Night -- not

Saturday Night Live, Saturday Night Massacre, okay? What do you think of

that? Would you like -- if you want that information, where do you want on

that? It`s seems like you`ve got enough, for me, to prosecute.

SCANLON: Well, it sounds like it from the Mueller report. It sounds like

there is more there. But we haven`t seen what McGahn actually said. We

haven`t seen the underlying notes. Apparently, there is extensive notes.

And it`s not just what you mentioned that he was told to fire Mueller, but

then, he was told to lie about it. Then he was told to manufacture

evidence to support a lie. There is a lot there, but we need the actual

evidence.

ALCINDOR: And it`s important to note that the White House has specifically

told Don McGahn not to turn over documents to Congress. I was pushing

White House sources on that today. And they said it`s another issue of

executive privilege, separate from Barr, but still executive privilege. So

you have, as the White House is saying, we are worried about what could be

happening here if Don McGahn goes and testifies before Congress.

MATTHEWS: Joyce, I want to go back to something I read in history, which

was that Joe McCarthy with (INAUDIBLE). They didn`t want to get rid of

him, censure him because of what he had done in hearings, because he was

awful to witnesses, because a lot of them were bad, the witnesses.

But they did wanted to get rid of him and they did censure and ruin his

career and he drank himself to death afterwards by censuring him on his

behavior in confronting the investigating committee and when after the

Flanders (ph) committee. It was that behavior that they cited him for.

The behavior of this President right now, denying any evidence to the

committee investigating him, denying any witnesses, any live witnesses and

documentary evidence, anything that they ask for to try to do their job of

oversight, he says I`m not going to let -- isn`t that obstruction of

justice in our face?

VANCE: This President has engaged in a constant pattern almost from day

one of obstruction in plain sight. And this is why it`s so important for

Congress to have the ability to access documents and witnesses that it

needs. Impeachment is a lot like indictment. Prosecutors just don`t show

up at work one day and say, let`s indict this defendant.

First, you have to investigate. You have to compile the evidence. You

have to look at it carefully to make sure that you understand what the

misconduct is and what conduct you may dislike, but it doesn`t actually

cross the line.

And so Congress needs to engage and have the ability using evidence and

witnesses from the White House where necessary to engage in that careful

process so that they can determine whether any action against this

President is warranted. To try to short circuit their consideration and

not let them engage in that process is a violation of the constitution, as

clear as anything we could contemplate.

MATTHEWS: Reading your report, Congresswoman, and you are in a difficult

situation because you want to get something done in your first term. I

think that`s right. And then you go to the fact that from the beginning of

this investigation, it`s clear that the President and his people obstructed

justice so that you couldn`t get enough evidence on him on collusion. So

you can`t get that case made.

Then he`s continued to avoid you getting any evidence to use against him

and investigating him with regard to obstruction. He won`t let McGahn

testify. He won`t let you see the unredacted report. He`s making clear he

want anything that come -- he won`t let you see his tax returns, nothing

that might incriminate him. What happens if he wins? What happens if you

don`t get anything, you can`t indict, you can`t even begin the procedures

aiming towards impeachment? What happens?

SCANLON: You and I are both fans of the constitution. I don`t think we`re

there yet. I think the courts are going to stand up. We saw tonight that

the Republican Senate has issued a subpoena against the member of the Trump

family. So I don`t think we`re there yet. But you know what --

MATTHEWS: You trust these courts, these five, four republican the Supreme

Court Justices?

SCANLON: I still trust the court, I still believe in our government. But

what we are seeing, we are seeing, Donald Trump talks about a wall. He`s

got a wall. But it has nothing to do with immigration. It has to do with

Mnuchin and Barr. And, you know, he`s built a wall to protect him from the

rule of law. And we`ve got to tear that wall down.

MATTHEWS: I watched Mnuchin, the arrogance of him. I know they have a lot

of money, but the arrogance of these guys. They just say, well, I`ll

consider that on May 6th. I`ll make up my mind then. They set their own

deadlines. They will say it`s a premature request or it was partisan.

They act like their own referees. And they`re saying they like it.

Anyways, some breaking news right now tonight. Adam Schiff, Democratic

Chair the House Intelligence Committee, just Tweeted that the House Intel

just subpoenaed DOJ for all counterintelligence and foreign intelligence

materials in the probe, the full report and underlying evidence. DOJ has

responded to our request with silence and defiance. Congress needs the

material. We will not be obstructed.

Joyce, there is the question again. This a lot of the stuff in here may

not be criminal. Of course, there`re questions about whether there`s

anything criminal at all and then the collusion piece of it, the

conspiracy. Certainly a lot of questions, 50-50 at best for the President

in terms of obstruction at best for him. But now, we do need the

counterintelligence information. What were the Russians up to? Who on

this side, the American side, were playing ball with them, criminally or

not, and they won`t even turn that over for that purpose to the

Intelligence Committee of Schiff.

VANCE: The counterintelligence part of this investigation has always been

critical, Chris, and this is certainly within Congress`s core area of

responsibility. Bob Mueller may not have found evidence that was

sufficient to prove a conspiracy between campaign and the Russian

government, but that`s a far cry from saying that there was no collusion, a

far cry from saying that the President hasn`t perhaps unwittingly been

compromised. Congress needs to see what the counterintelligence

investigation concluded so it can protect this country from whatever Russia

is planning on bringing next.

MATTHEWS: Well, finally something is happening tonight. I don`t know but

if it is important, but it certainly is interesting. The republican-led

Senate Intelligence Committee, all the committees on the Senate republican-

led, today subpoenaed the President`s Son, Donald Trump Jr. They want to

question Donald Jr. about his role, his true involvement in his father`s

attempts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow during the 2016 election, during

the campaign itself.

Asked in 2017 if he had any involvement in that deal, Trump Jr. replied

that he was only peripherally aware of it. However, the man spearheading

that project, former Trump lawyer, Michael Cohen, testified under oath that

he briefed Trump Jr. on it ten times. Yamiche?

ALCINDOR: I think this is a remarkable showing by the republicans in the

Senate to say we want answers. You can`t come to Congress and lie to us.

We want to know what`s going on.

MATTHEWS: Is Burr okay? Is he all right?

ALCINDOR: Is who? Is Burr?

MATTHEWS: Richard Burr, is he okay?

ALCINDOR: I mean, I think he`s going to be okay with the idea that if he

goes forward and there`s something that Donald Trump Jr. can say and he can

show that Donald Trump Jr. was misleading the Congress, then I think he

will be okay. I also think that --

MATTHEWS: And I wonder whether they`re serious in prosecuting the bad

guys. Will Richard Burr of North Carolina, a republican, be the only

republican that`s serious in this - because he would be the only one?

ALCINDOR: I think that the subpoena is already something that is very,

very serious and we have not seen this sort of action from republicans. I

will say, if we go a broader picture, 2020 is going to be resolving a lot

of this. If the President can get re-elected while doing all of this,

that`s when you really have to ask yourself about the Americans and their

understanding of the constitution. Because then, it says that there is a

precedent set that any republican and any democratic president can do this

and keep their job.

MATTHEWS: Well people have been -- because of all kinds of tribal

alliances, I`ve noticed that every community will re-elect the guy who is

one of theirs even if they are a crooks. And we`ve never apply that to the

President of the United States before, and God help us, we hope never will.

Anyway, Congresswoman Mary Gay Scanlon, of Delaware, Pennsylvania, I know

that one, I hope you do well out there. It`s a great honor. What a great

area to represent. Yamiche Alcindor, one of the greats, Joyce Vance, thank

you so much.

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