CNN "Anderson Cooper 360" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Richard Blumenthal

Interview

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COOPER: All right. Evan Perez, appreciate it.

Joining us now is Connecticut Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal. He's on the Judiciary Committee and co-sponsor bipartisan legislation to require Robert Mueller to provide his report in full to Congress and the public.

Senator Blumenthal, the fact that Manafort would turn around and intentionally lie to the special counsel according to this judge after he made a deal to cooperate with them. Does that make any sense to you? What does that tell you?

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well, what it tells me is that the lies were about connections between the Trump campaign and the Russians, or between Manafort and Kilimnik and the Russians, which were not involved in the initial charges. In other words, he was charged initially with money laundering, tax evasion, false statements. Now, there is apparently proof of the connections between him and Kilimnik and the so-called Ukraine peace plan, which was attractive to the Russians and possibly offered to the Trump campaign. There are other connection between the Trump campaign and Manafort and possibly Trump himself.

And the question is, why do you lie about it? Was it just that he was a congenital liar or because he was engaged in a cover-up that potentially was encouraged by others involved whether it was Roger Stone or others who are Trump associates?

COOPER: And I mean, the -- I still don't understand if there was nothing untoward about the contacts between Russia and all of these people around the president why does why are so many of them lying about their interactions with Russia? If everything's on the up-and- up, why not just tell the truth?

BLUMENTHAL: Well, that is sort of the question at the moment. And after every one of these meetings or contacts, there was deception about them.

[20:05:05] Take for example the Trump Tower meeting involving Manafort and Kushner and the others involved in the Trump campaign, Trump Jr. The meeting was then followed by a deceptive comment framed by the president himself. The Havana cigar meeting was then followed by a deceptive comment.

All of these contacts apparently are instigated misleading or untruthful comments, giving rise to the clear impression they lied because they thought maybe they were breaking the law. That's why people lie about things.

COOPER: Senator Blumenthal, I want to come back to you in just a little bit in their next segment because there's an important piece of business in front of your committee regarding the Mueller investigation and whether the report will see the light of day if you could just stand by for that.

I want to quickly go to our chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, former federal prosecutor Shan Wu, and former Trump White House lawyer Jim Schultz.

It's not a full win, Jeff, for the prosecutor's office, that the judge said that there were two points which they did not prove.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. But I mean, let's -- you know, we can talk about the political implications but I saw Paul Manafort in court the other day. This is a man who looks like he's dying. He is walking with a cane. He looks disoriented.

He has declined so precipitously in prison that when you realize he has now lost his cooperation agreement and the chance for a lower sentence, and he's facing an entirely separate prison sentence in the Virginia case, a 70-year-old man is looking like he may die in prison. And it is just a profound thing to think about --

COOPER: We're showing video but that that's probably older know.

TOOBIN: No, this is how we remember him as you know and I and -- you know, this is how he became a public figure during this investigation. He is almost unrecognizable --

COOPER: Really? From this video?

TOOBIN: Almost unrecognizable. You know, he's got gout. He's walking with a cane. Apparently, he's using a wheelchair a lot of the time.

Prison is rough for anybody and, you know, yes, he did wrong and he did wrong over and over again. But -- I mean, this man is really, really in danger of losing his life.

COOPER: Shan, I mean since the special counselor is no longer bound by its obligations under the plea agreement, what could that mean for Manafort sentencing?

SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: His sentencing could get worse. In particular, the question of the acceptance of responsibility now is up for grabs. Now, the judge might still give him credit for that because he still has pled guilty but that's what the concern is with the false statements which were actually done under a higher standard than the good faith standards for the plea agreement. That's where it's going to hurt him.

And it's reminder as Jeff's pointing out the way he's suffering now apparently physically it's a reminder of just how much power a cooperator gives the prosecution. They need only prove the initial breach by good faith. It's really in their sole discretion. And so, we wonder what would cause a man his age in declining health to take that kind of risk, to put himself at risk when they have so much power? Why does he have to do that? What is it he wants to hide?

And that's really the intriguing part. And the question is, is it the sanctions discussion that possibly went on? I mean, what could be worth it to him to take this kind of risk?

COOPER: Jim -- I mean, to that point, I -- it's the same question essentially I asked Senator Blumenthal. Why -- why would he lie and why would all these people lie after having these kind of meetings?

JAMES SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: In Manafort's case -- I mean, we don't know the answer to that. But in Manafort's case, it's been alleged that he had ties to Russians, that he's had worked with Russian operatives in the past and that he may have owed some of those folks money, and that he may have just been trying to save his own skin at the end of the day.

And why he'd lied, why he engaged in the conduct that they alleged he engaged in, turning over polling data, in my -- my sense is it has little do with politics and a lot to do with him saving his own skin.

TOOBIN: That's -- that is a possibility. I mean, that's -- you know, this incredibly cinematic meeting with Kilimnik in this semi seedy cigar bar which is on the top of 666 Fifth Avenue owned at the time by Jared Kushner, Rudy Giuliani is a regular there. I mean, it's like this crazy New York place. And this is the place they decide that they decide to meet.

And the question is, is Manafort meeting with Kilimnik to regenerate his own personal business in the Ukraine where he had made so much money, that's where the $15,000 ostrich jacket came from, or is he meeting with Kilimnik to try to get the Russians to help Donald Trump win the election? And that is obviously the most, you know, legally significant but it may simply be Manafort's greed.

COOPER: Senator Blumenthal, do you buy that that it could just be greed?

[20:10:03] BLUMENTHAL: It could be greed. It could be just the habit of self enrichment. But it could also be that, at the end of the day, Manafort wants a partner and there is obviously a reluctance to talk about it. But behind many of these lies on the part of -- whether, it's Roger Stone or others, ultimately, the motive may be to win favor with Trump as part of a cover-up and get a pardon.

Now, if you were to pick anyone to try to foist a cover-up on or lie to, the last person in the world would be Bob Mueller.

COOPER: Shan, what do you make about that? That this -- you know, the possibility of a pardon is what is in the back of Manafort's mind?

WU: I think that's always been in the back of his mind but I find what's really interesting here is the question of the special counsel's interest in these sanctions. That seems to become clearer recently and those discussions could have been about that. There's also one other point in the judge's order which is that he lied about an unnamed other Justice Department criminal investigation.

So those two things to me point in the direction that he may have been lying about something that goes to the heart of what they're looking at now, which is the discussion of sanctions, and that might be worth lying about to him. I think if he was trying to protect something, someone that's worth protecting keeping that information out and that would help him get a pardon if it's known that he was trying to protect that.

Going the pardoned route is a Hail Mary pass at any time, and particularly with this president, even though he bypasses the normal process, you just don't know what he's going to do. So that's not much of a strategy, but it's certainly something that's always been working in the background for him.

COOPER: Senator Blumenthal, you had other thought on that?

BLUMENTHAL: Just one last thought, Anderson, on this topic one of the lies that apparently he told to the special counsel related to in fact his giving polling data from the Trump campaign to clinic and thereby very likely to the Russian. Now, that polling data was the lifeblood of potential social media outreach and the kind of meddling that the Russians did. So, that coordination potentially is very important.

COOPER: Jim, I saw you shaking your head earlier.

SCHULTZ: Well, I think that's right except for why did he do it? And I think that's what we come back to, did it have something to do with trying to help the campaign or was it that he was trying to repay a debt that he owed? And I think that's what we're all waiting to see with Mueller's report.

COOPER: Essentially giving off some polling data as a way of buying favor?

SCHULTZ: Yes, currying favor, right. And I think that's -- that's, you know, was he acting in the scope of his duties as campaign chairman or was he acting in the scope of trying to protect Paul Manafort?

TOOBIN: I mean, Jim is raising a legitimate question but think about how far this investigation has come. Here you have the campaign chairman not some flunky, we're not talking about the coffee boy, giving a -- someone who is close to Russian intelligence information that is the gold, the most expensively produced product of the Trump campaign, private polling, which they can use to as a social media and -- I mean, that is closing the circle potentially but the Trump campaign and Russian interests, which is collusion.

COOPER: Yes.

SCHULTZ: And let's not about polling data for a second, I mean, for those of us been involved in campaigns. Polling data gets released to reporters all the time, gets released on time.

TOOBIN: Sometime.

SCHULTZ: Not right to be releasing them to the Russians, no question about that.

TOOBIN: Yes.

SCHULTZ: But let's not talk about polling data that it's something so intrinsic to a campaign, that it never makes its way into public domain. Largely, if it's good for the candidate, it makes its way into the public domain.

COOPER: All right. Jim Schultz, Shan Wu, Jeff Toobin, thanks very much more.

Breaking -- they're going to stick around. We have more breaking news ahead.

The man on track to be the next attorney general, William Barr, is already having discussions on how to handle the Mueller final report, including if and how it's released. We'll talk to Senator Blumenthal also about.

Later, the deal President Trump now faces to avoid another government shutdown versus what he could have gotten before the shutdown. Let's keep it honest.

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[20:18:39]C OOPER: There's more breaking news tonight. We've got exclusive new information on William Barr, the president's picked for attorney general who's expected to be confirmed for the top job this week and start overseeing the Russia probe.

Now, we've learned that Barr is consulting with top Justice Department officials on outlines on plans on how to handle the final Mueller report, that is according to people familiar with the discussions. Now, the most pressing question bar will face is how much information should be included in a report to Congress and the public.

As we mentioned before the break, Senator Richard Blumenthal is co- sponsored legislation to ensure that the Mueller report be available to both Congress and the public.

I want to thank Senator Blumenthal for sticking with us, to discuss these new developments. So, nothing short of Barr releasing the full report to Congress and the public is acceptable to you? Is that right?

BLUMENTHAL: That is absolutely right. Nor should it be acceptable to the American people. In fact, a recent poll -- a couple polls showed that more than 80 percent of the American people think that Barr -- the Mueller report should be released in full by Barr, and in fact, 79 percent of Republicans.

So, there should be complete full disclosure, public right to know of the entire findings and evidence, not just the conclusions, but all of the evidence and findings from the Mueller report, and the American people deserve to see because they paid for it.

COOPER: But -- I mean, isn't the counter-argument that you know, if -- unless there's an indictment, usually you don't hear from authorities detailing every stone that's been overturned?

[20:20:12] It's either yes, we're -- there's going to be something charged, or no, there's not?

BLUMENTHAL: You're absolutely right.

And I was United States attorney the chief federal prosecutor in Connecticut. I never did a report. I never commented in substance on people's background or character, and the only comments we made generally were in cases of criminal charges. So, the normal rule is either you indictment or you shut up.

But this is different because what we have here is a special counsel who is appointed only in the very rare and significant instances of abuse of trust, public trust and so the public really has a right to know. And we all can speculate and comment and predict, but what really counts is the findings and evidence and they bear directly on that betrayal of public trust.

There's the distinct possibility, Anderson, that there will be no indictment here because William Barr has concluded a sitting president cannot be indicted. So, if there's no indictment and no findings and evidence, what we have in effect is a cover-up, which the American people should not accept.

COOPER: The fact that Barr has not been confirmed as attorney general and is already consulting with top justice officials, is that standard operating procedure for nominee? BLUMENTHAL: Never stop -- never standard operating procedure for a nominee to talk about a pending investigation. So, I'm a bit surprised that he is talking about the outlines and plans as the CNN report suggested. There's a lot about the special counsel investigation that has been treated as special. I'm just hoping that he backs this legislation and supports the concept of full transparency.

This legislation is bipartisan and Senator Grassley and I have long been advocates of open and full transparency and disclosure and I'm hopeful that we will have the backing of more of our colleagues. Already, I think there's growing acceptance.

COOPER: Senator Blumenthal, again, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

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