CNN "Anderson Cooper 360" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Jim Himes

Interview

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COOPER: Congressman, do you have any understanding of what Rudy Giuliani is doing here? Is it possible there's actually some kind of strategy behind all this?

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Anderson, I think there is. Take a step back from the sort of latest crazy that you get from Giuliani and this is, of course, into the new thing. What's happening here is if you think about it, Giuliani is not actually the president's lawyer. Giuliani is a trusted mouthpiece to speak to the right wing, to speak to the president's base.

And when Giuliani does what he does almost every week, which is put out contradictory, odd, strange statements, what it does is it muddies the water. At the end of the day, that is the objective here. I think that's the sort of main point of Rudy Giuliani. He, as he says one thing and then walks it back, he raises questions in people's minds who are inclined to be sympathetic to the president as to whether there is any noticeable truth .

And if there is no noticeable truth and if one person says one thing and one network says another and another network says something different, when Bob Mueller comes out with his report, there is a big chunk of the American population that doesn't believe there is such a thing as objective truth and Rudy Giuliani's regular performances are designed to sort of promote that notion.

COOPER: I mean, the only alternative theory is that he's losing it. If that was the case, I don't think, you know, somebody in the president's orbit would decide not to put him out there constantly.

[20:10:05] So, I mean, I think to your point, there has to be that strategy behind it, because the alternative is they're continuing to allow this think, you know, somebody in the president's orbit would decide not to put him out there constantly.

So I think to your point, there has to be that strategy behind it. Because the alternative is they're continuing to allow this person to just say stuff, not based on any, you know that we know of information or later claims that wasn't based on any information.

HIMES: Yes. I think that's right. Look, nobody would hire Rudy Giuliani to be their defense attorney in the classic sense of the word if they were being charged with a crime. It's probably been decades since Rudy Giuliani argued in court.

He is here because he goes on TV, which, of course, not a typical thing for a defense attorney. Anybody that's watched somebody charged or go to trial, the attorney says we will be proven right in court and makes no other comments to the press. Rudy Giuliani is on TV pretty much every week for the express purpose of speaking to the president's base -- by the way, many of whose members are in the United States Senate and the United States House of Representatives, just to muddy the waters to deny, to obfuscate, to just throw sand in the gears.

COOPER: Right. Back in November about this deal in Russia, the president said there was a good chance that I wouldn't have won, in which case, I would have gotten back into the business and why should I lose lots of opportunities? Does that make sense to you?

I mean, it sort of shows where his priorities were, even though he was running for president, there were still business was still foremost in his mind.

HIMES: Yes. Well, that statement says couple this I think so to me. First of all, obviously, it's a complete repudiation of the president's previous position which is he had nothing going on in Russia. Absolutely nothing, nada.

That turns out to be true, so now the president has a reason for why he had ongoing discussions with Russia. And, look, you know, at some level, programs it makes sense, I might lose the election, in which case I don't want to have badly damaged my business. But at any level of decency, right or wrong, when are you president, when there is some chance you might be the leader of the free world, it is at that point, of course, that you stop doing anything that could give somebody leverage over you, that might create a sense of a conflict of interest.

The president, of course, doesn't understand the notion of a conflict of interest or of somebody having lever annual on him. So, it's not surprising he came out the way he did on that statement.

COOPER: In sort of what Giuliani is saying about the president talking to Cohen before he testified in front of Congress, Giuliani says it would be, quote, perfectly normal to have such a conversation.

I mean, it may not be illegal, depending on what was or wasn't said, it's not perfectly normal, is it?

HIMES: No, it's not normal. There is nothing normal about this.

And you're exactly right. It would probably be improper at any time for somebody who is being investigated to talk to a witness in that investigation. But where it could become seriously problematic and illegal, of course, is whether the president suggested, asked, demanded that Michael Cohen say any particular thing, certainly if that particular thing was not true.

And, of course, we know that Michael Cohen is not particularly faithful to the truth. The president is not particularly faithful to the truth so if there was a meeting and the president was encouraging Michael Cohen to lie to the special counsel, this, of course, takes us back to the still controversial "BuzzFeed" article. That is a very serious problem.

COOPER: Yes. Congressman Himes, appreciate your time. Thank you.

HIMES: Thank you, Anderson.

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