CNN "The Lead With Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Chris Van hollen
Interview
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JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.
Joining me now also from Capitol Hill, Senator Chris Van Hollen, Democrat of Maryland.
His exchange with Attorney General Barr last month took center stage in today's hearing.
Senator, I want to play a clip from your exchange last month with Attorney General Barr. It came two weeks after Barr had received this letter from Mueller outlining Mueller's concerns about his four-page summary.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Did Bob Mueller support your conclusion?
BARR: I don't know whether Bob Mueller supported my conclusion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[16:05:00]
TAPPER: So, knowing now what the truth is, do you think the attorney general was misleading, do you think he committed perjury, or do you think that his hair-splitting was acceptable?
VAN HOLLEN: Well, Jake, his hair-splitting is not acceptable.
He deliberately misled Congress in that response to me, because he knew at the time I asked that question that Bob Mueller had sent him this letter and that Bob Mueller had expressed concerns about the conclusions that the attorney general had reached.
So, when I asked him in that question, does the -- does Bob Mueller agree with you, does he support your conclusions, he knew when he answered my question about the Mueller concerns, but refused to disclose them.
So that is deceptive. We were -- my view is that this attorney general has lost any remaining trust he may have had with the American people. And the American people need to be able to trust the attorney general to be the people's lawyer, and not the president's spokesperson. So, he does need to resign.
TAPPER: He needs to resign. You're calling for him to resign.
So, one thing I want to ask you is, just to play devil's advocate for a second, so he would say -- clearly, he wasn't as transparent as he could have been. He didn't explain what Bob Mueller had just said to him a couple weeks before, even though you asked him.
But he might say, the attorney general, you were asking me about whether or not the -- Bob Mueller agrees with my conclusions. Bob Mueller didn't contact me about my conclusions. Bob Mueller contacted me about my memo and how I was describing his report, and those are two different things.
Again, I get it's not as transparent as it could have been, but would that not be an argument he could make?
VAN HOLLEN: No, I don't think that begins to cut mustard.
I'm just reading from the Mueller letter where he speaks about the Barr memo. And he says it does not fully capture the substance of Mueller's conclusions. What are the conclusions that Mueller reached? They were on two counts. One was the so-called collusion issue. The other was obstruction of justice.
Those were the conclusions that were laid out in the memo and those were the conclusions that Barr was talking about. And so, when Barr told me, in response to a direct question, that he did not know whether Mueller had concerns with his conclusions, it flatly contradicts the letter that Mueller sent him.
TAPPER: So, your Democratic colleagues and 2020 presidential candidates former HUD Secretary Julian Castro, Senator Elizabeth Warren, they took it further. You said that Barr should step down.
They have even said -- I believe it's those two have said that he should be impeached, he should face potential impeachment. Do you agree with that?
VAN HOLLEN: Look, Jake, I think that the House has a very, very full plate right now.
They have got all sorts of important investigations ongoing to try to hold this administration accountable. You have a president who refuses to provide documents. So they have got to decide how to prioritize the time that they have in the House of Representatives.
He should do the right thing and resign. His testimony today indicates that he's not going to -- not thinking about doing that. I thought the way that he belittled the Mueller letter was very revealing.
TAPPER: When he said he thought it was a little snitty and that a staff member probably wrote it.
VAN HOLLEN: Yes, he called it snitty.
And this was obviously an effort by Mueller to document Mueller's concerns. I think we all know that Bob Mueller has been a professional. He doesn't do things lightly. He doesn't contract out his work. And so for the attorney general to call his letter snitty just reveals the fact that the attorney general really never gave the Mueller report its full due and decided to go on a spin mission.
That was what that four-page memo was all about. And Mueller called him on it. And now you have got the attorney general misleading Congress and the public on both counts, both in that four-page memo and Mueller's letter.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: The attorney general today defended his release of the four- page letter, his four-page memo. He compared it to offering a verdict in a trial, just the bottom line, basically, not guilty of this, not guilty of that, and figured that since he was going to release almost the entire Mueller report, the rest of the information would come out eventually.
What did you make of that description?
VAN HOLLEN: I thought he did a lousy job justifying why he, the attorney general, decided to exonerate the president on the obstruction of justice counts.
It's not that he didn't have some kind of authority to do it, although I think Mueller clearly wanted Congress to make those determinations. But, my goodness, if you're going to spend just 48 hours reviewing the Mueller report, you should at least have an explanation for why you don't think that these actions by the president constitute criminal obstruction of justice.
[16:10:17]
I mean, when the president says to Don McGahn, fire -- fire Bob Mueller...
TAPPER: Well, he didn't say fire, but he said get rid of him, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
VAN HOLLEN: Then, when he refuses to do it, he says -- the president says to McGahn, don't tell anybody that I told you to fire Mueller.
I mean, these are serious issues which the attorney general just has glossed over in a very sort of -- you know, as if these are frivolous things, just like he called Bob Mueller's letter snitty.
It suggests a level of unseriousness with respect to the facts from the attorney general. And that's what's unacceptable.
TAPPER: Lastly, Senator, you said that you think that the House is too busy, has too much on its hands, on its plate to begin impeachment proceedings against the attorney general.
Do you think the House should begin impeachment proceedings against President Trump?
VAN HOLLEN: Well, I said that the House has its plate full, and they have to decide how to prioritize, how to move forward on these different issues. So I would leave that decision on the attorney general to them.
With respect to the president, I think that the House has charted the right approach, which is, let's call Bob Mueller before the committee. Let's get the unfiltered story from Bob Mueller about all the different things that are going on and that were discussed at this hearing.
Let's bring some of the other witnesses before us, because the American people really haven't heard this story, right? Not everyone has a chance to read a 400-page report. And I think the public deserves to have that unfiltered testimony from Bob Mueller and others, so they can reach conclusions on this issue.
TAPPER: Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you, sir. Always good to have you on.
VAN HOLLEN: Good to be here. Thanks, Jake.
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