CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Mazie Hirono
Interview
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BLITZER: Nadler, who was surrounded by other members of the Judiciary Committee, said: "This committee has the right to determine its own procedures." And he's clearly not backing down from what they are demanding.
Stand by. Barr's decision to refuse to testify tomorrow morning comes after his
rather contentious hearing today with senators. He was challenged on his initial letter summarizing the Mueller report, as well as his decision to determine the president didn't obstruct justice.
Joining us now, the Democrat who directly accused the attorney general, William Barr, of lying during today's hearing, Senate Judiciary Committee member Senator Mazie Hirono.
Senator, thanks so much for joining us.
SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D), HAWAII: Hi.
BLITZER: So what's your reaction, first of all, Senator, to the news that the attorney general is refusing to testify before your House colleagues tomorrow morning?
HIRONO: I think it's par for the course for this administration.
They are fighting all requests for people testifying. And so this is par for the course with this administration. Practically everything they do leads to people having to file lawsuits and doing those kinds of things that wastes a lot of resources and time.
But, nonetheless, so here's Barr not wanting to present himself to the House. Meanwhile, as you know, it came before the Senate Judiciary Committee, where I did not think that we were going to get much in the way of straight answers from this person. And that's what happened.
And that is why I pointed out the fact that this attorney general is not the attorney general for the people of our country. But, in fact, he acts like a defense lawyer for the president. He should have taken that job when it was offered to him by Trump.
BLITZER: Do you think the House Judiciary Committee chairman, Jerry Nadler, may be making a mistake by not immediately issuing a subpoena for the attorney general to testify?
Because, if you had subpoena power in the Senate -- you don't because the Democrats are the minority in the Senate -- would you subpoena Bill Barr immediately?
HIRONO: I'm not going to second-guess what Jerry Nadler is doing. They have got a lot on their plates. They have a lot of committees doing a lot of investigations, because the Trump Organization has been doing a lot of things that need to be investigated. So I'm not going to second-guess what they're doing.
Meanwhile, at least they're going to have a chance to talk to Mueller, whereas, on the Senate side, it looks as though Lindsey Graham is not going to be calling Mueller before the Judiciary Committee, which I think is a shame.
And it's more than a shame. It's very disappointing.
BLITZER: Let's talk about your Senate hearing today. You came, as we all know -- and we were watching it -- with guns
blazing. You started by telling the attorney general that he's no different than Rudy Giuliani or Kellyanne Conway.
Explain what you meant by that.
HIRONO: Because they're all in the service of this president.
It's like entering what I would call the moral dead zone that is the White House. And people who otherwise had good reputations before entering this dead zone suddenly become sycophants and do the bidding of the president.
So, I said, you are no better than all these other people, because I emphasized that he is acting like the attorney general -- like the attorney for the president, not the attorney general of our country. That goes to how he dealt with the Mueller report, how he was -- I would say he lied.
[18:15:05]
When you deliberately mislead Congress -- when he did not provide the answer to Chris Van Hollen, when Chris asked him, well, did Mueller have any concerns about the four page so-called summary, and he said no. Well, in fact, he knew that he -- that Mueller did have concerns, so much so that he expressed these concerns in a letter to Barr, which is really not the kind of thing that you would expect a special counsel to do.
BLITZER: And in a dramatic moment, Senator, you told the attorney general right to his face that he should resign. Clearly, that's not very likely.
But do you think Democrats could reach a consensus on perhaps going forward with an effort to impeach Bill Barr?
HIRONO: I think that the House is going to have to go in that direction. I do think that the Mueller report is a lead-up to impeachment proceedings.
But these are not normal times. In normal times, any president who did what he did, I think, would be subject to impeachment. This is not normal times. This is why the House committees have to undergo the kind of investigation into all of the Trump Organization's, I would say, nefarious doings in terms of taxes, real estate, insurance fraud, et cetera, not to mention campaign spending violations, and develop a much greater -- lots more ammunition to go forward with impeachment proceedings, because these are not normal times.
And I know that Sally Yates, our former acting attorney general, said, based on the kind of information that's in the Mueller report that leads to an obstruction of justice, with anybody other than a president, she would have already been indicted this person for obstruction.
So this is a kind of environment we are in. And, by the way, when I asked Attorney General Barr whether it was OK, since obviously he did not think that it was a crime, the 10 items that were listed in the Mueller report leading to an obstruction, does he -- since he did not consider any of those a crime, I asked him, but is it OK?
Is it OK for the president to ask his White House counsel to lie? Is it OK to fire the FBI director because he wanted to...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: And, you know, Senator, hold on -- hold on for a moment, because that was a very dramatic moment.
I want to play this exchange, that specific exchange that you had with the attorney general. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HIRONO: Do you think it's OK for a president to ask his White House counsel to lie?
WILLIAM BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, I'm willing to talk about what's criminal, but...
HIRONO: No, but we have already acknowledged that you think it was not a crime. I'm just asking whether you think it's OK. Even if it's not a crime, do you think it's OK for the president to ask his White House counsel to lie?
BARR: Which...
HIRONO: Look, if you are going to just go to back to whether or not it's a crime, you're telling me that it's OK.
BARR: No, which event are you talking about? Which event are you talking about?
HIRONO: Let me ask you the last question that I have in 17 seconds.
Do you think it's OK for a president to offer pardons to people who don't testify against him, to threaten the family of someone who does? Is that OK?
BARR: What -- when did he offer a pardon to someone in order to...
(CROSSTALK)
HIRONO: I think you know what I'm talking about. Please.
BARR: What you mean please?
HIRONO: Please, Mr. Attorney General, give us some credit for knowing what the hell is going on around here with you.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Not really to this line of questioning.
HIRONO: So...
(CROSSTALK)
GRAHAM: Listen, you have slandered this man.
(CROSSTALK)
BARR: Yes. What I sort of want to know is, how did we get to this point?
(CROSSTALK)
HIRONO: I do not think that I am slandering anyone.
(CROSSTALK)
HIRONO: Mr. Chairman, I am done. Thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
GRAHAM: And you slandered this man from top to bottom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: That was your committee Chairman , Lindsey Graham, going after you, saying what we were doing to the attorney general was totally inappropriate, you slandered this man, he said.
What's your reaction to that?
HIRONO: Truth is a defense, and opinion is not slander. That's my response to that.
You know, truth hurts. So I'm asking legitimate questions of this attorney general. Apparently, with this administration, questions of right or wrong or morality has absolutely no place in the moral dead zone that is the White House.
So we expect our attorney general to represent the people of this country, not the president of the United States. But that's exactly what he's doing. And so he just continues to compound.
He just obfuscates. And one of the most troubling responses, so- called, was when Kamala Harris asked him whether the White House has suggested that he investigate anybody, and he asked, what do you mean by suggest?
We would expect an attorney general who's an attorney general for our country to say, hell, no, that's not how we do things. We do not go after people, investigate people for political reasons.
We already know that this president is fully capable of asking his attorney general to go after political enemies like Hillary Clinton. That was a very troubling "Hmm, I have to think about that" response from the attorney general.
[18:20:10]
And, believe me, Wolf, it gives me no pleasure at a public hearing to call upon the attorney general to resign. But there you have it. These are not normal times.
BLITZER: Senator Mazie Hirono of Hawaii, thanks so much for joining us.
HIRONO: Thank you.
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