CNN "CNN Newsroom" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Steve Cohen
Interview
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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: I just wonder, because you are supportive of impeachment proceedings now, if you think it's worth it to do that, push forward ahead on that, if that means zippo gets done in Congress for the American people?
REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): Well, we're probably not going to get anything done anyway because Mitch McConnell has already announced that the Senate is the graveyard for House legislation.
Trump has no policy issues. He is not a person of ideas. It's about Trump and his ego. So he wasn't going to get much done anyway, and I think Mick Mulvaney told him there was no money so find an excuse for not getting an infrastructure bill done.
HARLOW: Look, he made an infrastructure -- he made a $2 trillion infrastructure proposal, sir.
COHEN: Well, but Mick Mulvaney said it wasn't going to happen, immediately after the first meeting with the Democrats. He said there was no money.
Trump doesn't care. He's all about -- it's all reality television. His job is to get things done. He basically said, "If you investigate me, we're not -- I'm not going to do my job."
HARLOW: I mean -- all right. He got --
COHEN: If you investigate him, it shows he feels guilty and there's something --
HARLOW: All right.
COHEN: -- to be found.
HARLOW: He got --
COHEN: He can't be a gangster.
HARLOW: -- tax reform -- he got tax reform done -- which I know you're not supportive of it but it was a major piece of legislation -- through. But I take your point and your view. Here's the thing. I know that you are calling for impeachment proceedings, an inquiry to start now. You said something that really struck me a few days ago, on another network, Congressman. You said 90 percent of Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee are for opening an impeachment inquiry right now.
If that number is accurate, is Nancy Pelosi going too soft on the president right now? Is she not listening to the majority of members of her caucus?
COHEN: Well, it's the majority of the members of the Judiciary Committee. The members --
HARLOW: I know.
COHEN: -- of the Judiciary Committee are much more attuned to this issue, and it's our responsibility to protect the Constitution. That's where impeachment would lie.
The majority of the caucus is not there yet. Nancy has a good perspective on her caucus and she's a good mother hen. I think she's wrong in her strategy. I think by exposing the corruption of this administration, the Emoluments Clause violations, the obstruction of justice, all the things that he's done -- the obstruction of Congress, and having it in the forum of an impeachment inquiry or an impeachment hearing, that the public will watch, as they did during the Watergate Senate hearings, and they will --
HARLOW: OK.
COHEN: -- come to the -- around to see that this man is not capable to be president.
HARLOW: But why -- OK, but you just told me, 90 percent of the Democrats on House Judiciary are supportive of an impeachment inquiry now, but not a majority of Democrats in the entire caucus.
COHEN: Right.
HARLOW: But yet you still don't think Nancy Pelosi's making the right choice by listening to the majority in her caucus?
COHEN: Well, she needs to do, A, what's right. She says that she's doing this because of patriotism, not politics.
HARLOW: All right.
COHEN: And it's hard to see that. I mean, patriotism would say, "Jump into Hell for a heavenly cause." And the fact is, when you have a Constitution and you have a rule of law and it's being destroyed in a reckless gangster manner, you need to act.
I think you -- the only reason not to act is because of politics.
HARLOW: So Speaker Pelosi -- wait, wait, wait --
COHEN: Patriotism says act.
HARLOW: -- I mean, you're saying -- it sounds like you're saying House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is not being patriotic. Is that right?
COHEN: No, not necessarily. I think, you know, you could be patriotic in different ways. But if you're going to say whether going to impeachment is patriotic or not going for impeachment is patriotic, I think going for impeachment is. When you see it laid out before you, and I see that. There are --
HARLOW: So -- so you're saying, she's putting politics above patriotism in this instance?
COHEN: I don't -- I hate to get into it with Nancy. Nancy and I have got a great relationship and I'm not going to spoil that. But I do think the better strategy --
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: Well, I get that. But you also need to be straight, right? You're being straight with the American people, is that how you see it?
COHEN: I'm straight with the American people. Donald Trump needs to be impeached. I think it'll be the best thing for the country and the best thing for the Democrats, both.
HARLOW: OK. Listen to your Republican colleague in the Senate, John Kennedy. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): The House leadership needs to urinate or get off the pot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Is he right?
COHEN: You know, he's -- he always has these cute little colloquialisms. This one, he changed around. John Kennedy is not on the House Judiciary Committee. It's not his responsibility to act.
He's from a state that's very heavily pro-Trump and he has ambitions of running for governor.
HARLOW: But is he right that House leadership should act on this? Make a decision?
COHEN: It's not for him to tell us. I think the House leadership is -- should and will eventually be for impeachment because this man is the most impeachable president ever. He's going to continue to do things that are aberrant behavior for a president.
What he said about Rex Tillerson today was crazy. "He was dumb as a rock." He hired him. He said --
HARLOW: Yes.
COHEN: -- he said he hired the best people.
HARLOW: Yes.
COHEN: He's no geologist. He doesn't know what a rock is.
HARLOW: Rex Tillerson is not dumb. He ran one of the most valuable American companies --
COHEN: Corporations (ph), Exxon --
HARLOW: -- ever --
COHEN: ExxonMobil --
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: -- on the planet, ever.
COHEN: Right.
HARLOW: All right. So, all right. Let me just get you on this, finally. Look, let's talk about the third and final article of impeachment against President Nixon. It was -- and I'm paraphrasing -- that he withheld documents and didn't turn over documents or records to lawmakers. And that's what's happening here.
[10:35:03] So I'm interested in if your game plan, if Democrats' game plan right now is basically: Defy even these court rulings that we're seeing, refuse to hand over documents, et cetera. And then use that as an article of impeachment against the president.
COHEN: I don't think we -- that's not a game plan. That's fact. And that will be -- if there is an article of impeachment that I have anything to do with -- and I've got one I've got drawn, and I have not decided the right time to act on it -- it includes obstructing the Congress, just as Nixon did.
These are acts to try to obstruct the investigation. He knows that there was obstruction of justice. And Mueller basically said there was obstruction of justice. But because he was president, he couldn't bring the charges. He needed a forum where he had an opportunity to defend himself because Mueller's a man of rectitude, which is a word Trump doesn't -- not only appear to be, but he doesn't even know.
HARLOW: All right. The Mueller report didn't exactly do that. It spent about 150 pages laying out 10 areas of potential obstruction, and really left up -- left that decision, it seems, in the hands of you guys. We'll see where this goes.
Representative Steve Cohen, it's very nice to have you today. An important conversation. I do appreciate your time.
COHEN: Thank you very much. It's good to be with you.
HARLOW: Thanks.
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