MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Ted Lieu

Interview

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HAYES:  We have breaking muses evening.  Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin missed today`s deadline to turn over the President`s tax returns telling Congress "in reliance on the advice the Department of Justice, that would be William Barr`s Department Justice, I`ve determined the committee`s request lacks a legitimate legislative purpose.
 
This comes as the Attorney General the United States and the Department of Justice are scrambling to avoid their own imminent contempt of Congress citation for the Attorney General who has refused to testify in front of the House Judiciary Committee and blown off the committee`s formal subpoena for the unredacted Mueller report.
 
The Judiciary Committee is now planning a contempt vote for Wednesday.  Now tonight, Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler has announced the DOJ has proposed a meeting with his staff tomorrow to begin to negotiate an acceptable accommodation.  But there is still another possible shoe to drop if House Democrats subpoena Barr`s testimony.
 
Meanwhile, the President has done a 180 on whether Robert Mueller should testify.  It looks like the Department of Justice may move to actually block Mueller from appearing before Congress.  Joining me now a member of the committee chasing after the man who guards the Mueller report, Congressman Ted Lieu, Democrat from California, member of that House Judiciary Committee.
 
And let`s start first with the business before your committee.  It is notable to me that the Department of Justice, the Attorney General appeared to want to avoid this contempt citation.  How do you read their behavior?
 
REP. TED LIEU (D-CA):  Thank you, Chris, for your question.  I`m not going to really look at what the Department of Justice wants to do.  I want to know if Bill Barr is going to provide the unredacted materials and the underlying evidence which 420 members of Congress on a bipartisan basis voted to get, and also Bill Barr is going to show up in committee hearing.
 
So right now this is just a bunch of talk from the Department of Justice.  And my view is if the Trump administration is going to engage in maximum obstruction of justice, then we have to be prepared to engage in a maximum response and that includes contempt.
 
HAYES:  What about the question before Congress right now about the tax returns.  Obviously, that`s in a different committee than yours.  But again, you are a member of this of Congress which is having its nose thumbed at.  I want to read the Ways and Means Chair Representative Neal who said that Secretary Mnuchin notified me.  The IRS will not provide the documents I requested.  I will consult with counsel and determine the appropriate response.
 
What do you make of this refusal?
 
LIEU:  So there are two different legal theories happening.  Bill Barr violated a congressional subpoena last Wednesday.  Secretary Mnuchin is violating an actual statute that says you got to provide the tax returns to the House Ways and Means Chair.  It is black and white plain letter law so I don`t see how Steve Mnuchin gets out of this.  And if he doesn`t provide it, then I think we`re going to go to court and we will prevail in the court case.
 
HAYES:  Yes.  I mean, is that where you understand the ultimate arbiter of this power struggle?  I mean, right now you`ve got a whole bunch of stuff happening right.  The -- whether the Mueller report will be provided unredacted, whether a subpoena will be issued to Barr and if you would appear if so on the tax returns.  Is -- do you trust essentially the courts will ultimately end up being the one to resolve these disputes?
 
LIEU:  I do trust of course because they actually have to rely on facts.  And so if you look at the statute and their tax case, it is very clear the House Ways and Means chair gets to get the tax returns of their president.
 
And if you look at congressional subpoenas, courts throughout our history have upheld the power of congressional subpoenas.  In Watergate, they upheld the power of congressional subpoenas.  I believe they would do so again.
 
But let`s say the courts don`t do that.  Congress itself has inherent contempt power that the Supreme Court itself has upheld.  And so Congress can also take action without having go to the court.
 
HAYES:  OK, so what does that mean?  What does contempt of Congress actually mean?
 
LIEU:  If the Judicial Committee in the House votes to hold Bill Barr in contempt, it triggers two things.  One allows us to litigate the issue in court, second it triggers inherent contempt power which means we can take actions through our internal congressional processes such as levying fines on individuals without having to go to court.
 
The Supreme Court has said we have that power.  And look, it should not be our first option.  But if the Trump administration is going to engage in all this norm and role in law violating then we have to look at all options.
 
HAYES:  What is your understanding status?  I`m confused about a special counsel Mueller.  The Department of Justice, there`s some noise being made that they may block him from testifying and he is still an employee of that department and they can do that.  But why is he still there under the DOJ and how can you get him before your committee if the DOJ blocks it.
 
LIEU:  So the Trump Administration has made some arguments that senior advisors to the President should not have to testify before Congress.  There is no legal defense for the department justice to hold Robert Mueller from testifying.
 
Now that we see not only senior advisor to Donald Trump, he was a guy investigating Donald Trump.  And so case precedent and what we`ve seen in our history is that in Watergate the special prosecutor Leon Jaworski testified before Congress.  During the Clinton Administration Ken Starr testified before Congress.  There is really no legal reason to keep Robert Mueller from testifying before Congress.
 
HAYES:  Ultimately then, is that something you would also have to pursue in the courts?
 
LIEU:  Potentially if it resorts to us having to issue a subpoena.  It`s not clear to me -- and you have a good question why Robert Mueller is still an employee at Department of Justice.  At some point, I believe he`s not going to be employee because he finished his report and then we can get him in as a private citizen.  But even now, I don`t see any legal basis to keep him from testifying before Congress.
 
HAYES:  All right, Congressman Ted Lieu who sits on that House Judiciary Committee which is in the midst of the parry and thrust with the Department of Justice on all this, thank you very much.
 
LIEU:  Thank you, Chris

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