MSNBC "All in with Chris Hayes" - Transcript: Interview with Reps. Norma Torres and Brad Sherman

Interview

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HAYES: Now, no matter what else happens, the important thing I think to  keep in mind are one of the most important things to keep in mind, and I  cannot stress it enough is that the current President of the United States  was unquestionably the beneficiary of not one but two illegal criminal  conspiracies in 2016 to nudge him over the finish line.

One of those conspiracies he was directly involved in, possibly directed.  And the other one involved a foreign adversary who at the very least he  praised and cajoled and flirted with and who knows maybe did even more.
Joining me Congresswoman Norma Torres and Congressman Brad Sherman, both  are Democrats from California. Congresswoman Torres, do you agree with the  Speaker`s comments on impeachment?

REP. NORMA TORRES (D), CALIFORNIA: I do want to say that I very much share  Speaker Pelosi`s concerns for Presidents Trump`s fitness to serve an office  while I also share the concerns of my colleague the reasons why he filed  impeachment papers.

HAYES: So I just want to be clear on that. You do want to see the caucus  press ahead with impeachment?

TORRES: I -- not at this point. I think that I want to see the caucus  continue its investigations. I want to ensure that the Oversight Committee  continues to do its work, the Judiciary Committee continues to do their  work. I want to make sure that we are able to look at Muller`s report  before we go down that route.

We have a lot of work to do. Remember, we were shut down for 35 days.  800,000 people did not get paid. There are priorities and the reasons why  we were elected to office. We have so much work to do. Impeachment will  take us down a road where we will not be able to focus on all of those  priorities that are -- that our constituents elected us to do.

HAYES: Congressman Sherman, your thoughts.

REP. BRAD SHERMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: I mostly agree with Norma and with  Speaker Pelosi. It`s clear this president has committed felonies, in  particular, a violation of Section 1512 B3 of the Criminal Code when he  obstructed justice three times. But at the same time, we don`t have the  votes in the Senate to remove Trump from the presidency.

And so we need to build support in this country, the country about half  support impeachment and removal from office. In order to convince the  country, we need to show them more facts. The investigations will show  them more facts. But if we hadn`t talked about impeachment at all in  Washington, Trump would -- imagine what Trump would have done if he didn`t  think there was the possibility of impeachment.

He certainly would have fired Mueller and I`m sure there`s a dozen other  terrible ideas that have crossed his mind that he`s been held back on  because there is at least the possibility of impeachment.

HAYES: All right. So let me see if I understand this. What you`re saying  is it`s important that the threat loom out there. It`s also important that  we not do it too quickly or do it at all if there is not actual grassroots  Democratic support for it. But I want to ask you this and I`m going to ask  you this the same question Congresswoman Torres -- Congresswoman Torres.  There seems to be a weird kind of chicken and egg thing happening here.

You know, you have to make the case. If you think the guy is committed  impeachable offenses, it`s in the Constitution. The Founders are very  clear in the transcripts of what was happening or the sort of proceedings  of the Constitutional Convention. It`s important to check a ruler who is  abusing his power. You got to make that case if that`s where you want to  end up. You can`t wait for people. What do you say to that Congressman  Sherman?

SHERMAN: There`s nothing in the Constitution that says the House has to  impeach under this or that circumstance. We`re allowed to impeach when  there`s high crimes and misdemeanors. Removing this president would be  great for the country but we need to build enough support so that we`ve got  Mitch McConnell or at least some of his caucus on our side ready to vote  for remove.

We were able to do that with Richard Nixon and perhaps you know, I would  have hoped that the facts already on the record would be sufficient for not  just half but two thirds or three percent of the population. But we`re not  there yet. We need to make the case.

HAYES: I see. Is that your view Congresswoman Torres.

TORRES: It is my view. This is a very lengthy process. It is a difficult  process so the first step, the House can impeach by a simple majority. But  when we get to the Senate it will take 67 senators to vote to convict. An  impeachment without conviction does not get this President out of office.  And we are not going to have more than one opportunity to do that.

So that is the reason why I agree with Speaker Pelosi that we must focus  on the work ahead of us, in front of us, and ensure that we allow these  committees to do their work, to do the oversight. We have to have a  transparent process where we gain the support of a bipartisan support of  not just our colleagues in the Senate but also the voters, the taxpayers  that gave us this opportunity to serve them in Congress.

HAYES: Can you -- Congresswoman, can you imagine a universe a set of facts  that were to be revealed, a political universe that we might actually  inhabit in the future in which there will be 67 votes for removal?

TORRES: That would be amazing but that has to be a bipartisan --

HAYES: No, but I`m saying like is that a possibility? Like if it came out. I mean, I`ll tell you what I think. If it came out the President actually ordered someone murdered and they`re buried in the front yard of the White House, I`m not sure there`s 67 votes to impeach him.

TORRES: Look, the rule of law -- upholding the rule of law is not a  Republican or a Democratic issue. That is a bipartisan issue.  Transparency is a bipartisan issue. Corruption, public corruption, that is  a bipartisan issue. But we have to have the facts and we have to have  evidence to get our colleagues on board.

HAYES: Final thought Congressman Sherman.

SHERMAN: Chris, I don`t think we necessarily wait till we count 67 votes  in the Senate, but we do need to see a higher level of popular support in  order to be successful in removing. At the same time focusing the country  on the crimes he`s committed and on the terrible mistakes that he`s made is  an important part of what we`re doing in Congress.

HAYES: All right, Congresswoman Norma Torres and Congressman Brad Sherman,  thank you both. 

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